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Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

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Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#131

Post by throwbacktictac »

audunw wrote: post #119
killtimeatwork wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where China was smart I guess. They didn't sign any treaty which forced them into free trade or IP protection, but instead slowly allowed their industries to build up via IP theft and strong protectionism. Now they have giant companies on par with the West's. Whereas everyone who joined the EU in the decade of 2000 (and the Washington Consensus before that in the nineties) is now a pawn of the Western capital…

I really think China is making a huge mistake actually. See how TSMC (Taiwan) and Samsung are free to buy ASMLs EUV machines, while China is blocked. Part of that is due to their rampant IP theft. Why sell machines to China if they're just going to copy them? China also messed up big time by enforcing their 1 child policy, and taking so long to open up and industrialize. They're far behind economically compared to wh…

I think it's healthy to have a diverse set of mid and upper market companies. Chinese companies will ultimately buy their way into up market businesses. One antidote that I can readily think of is the acquisition of the street wear company Bape buy a the Chinese/Hong Kong manufacturer I.T Group. Forbes magazine is another company that was acquired by a Chinese company.

Furthermore, Hong Kong has some international appeal and most people think of it as a nation separate from China. In reality, companies from China incorporate in HK to escape the aurora of being a Chinese compnay

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#132

Post by Blackstone4 »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #116
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"we should allow developing countries" Not to pick on you, but I often hear this frasing in the 'first world' and surely you dont 'allow' or 'disallow' internal policies to an sovereign nation? It sounds like a Freudianslip or something, the reality is that its easy to bully or bribe officials in developing nations.

That's what the west does all the time. Blackmail poor countries into selling all of their assets to foreign capital, just to gain access to foreign credit. See what's happening in Cuba. See what Vietnam had to do after the war with the US, see Greece with Europe recently, see countless more. The WTO, IMF and the World Bank are the colonizing arm of capitalism. It's a relatively new form of supernational economic war…

The way you phrase it, makes it sound like theft...surely, they have to buy the assets and that goes to the owner...the owner then can chose to re-invest locally if they choose to...the capital doesnt just disappear...

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#134

Post by pietrovismara »

Blackstone4 wrote: post #132
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the west does all the time. Blackmail poor countries into selling all of their assets to foreign capital, just to gain access to foreign credit. See what's happening in Cuba. See what Vietnam had to do after the war with the US, see Greece with Europe recently, see countless more. The WTO, IMF and the World Bank are the colonizing arm of capitalism. It's a relatively new form of supernational economic war…

The way you phrase it, makes it sound like theft...surely, they have to buy the assets and that goes to the owner...the owner then can chose to re-invest locally if they choose to...the capital doesnt just disappear...

> the owner then can chose to re-invest locally if they choose to

Only at the conditions imposed by the IMF. Usually that means the state has to steer away from anything that could be profitable and focus only on what is not palatable to foreign capital.

It also means states can't apply import taxes, thus making their industries instantly obsolete. It's pretty much a huge transfer of wealth from inside to outside.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#135

Post by vlan0 »

m12k wrote: post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

Life and Debt is another good example.

http://lifeanddebt.org/

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#136

Post by jeffreyrogers »

throwaway9870 wrote: post #124
m12k wrote: post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

Perhaps, but Asia does pretty well. Korea, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc. all did amazing development in the last 30-60 years. The reality is that some cultures are better at it than others. Compare China to India for example.

They followed the policies the OP is talking about though. That's their point: you need to protect your exporting industries early on so they can develop and become efficient. Then you can protect them less as they become higher quality/more productive. All of the countries you listed did this. India has a bunch of economic problems, many of which are self inflicted.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#137

Post by vmilner »

fmajid wrote: post #65

Divine Chocolate is owned by Ghanaian cacao farmer: https://www.divinechocolate.com/products A much better model than the Fairtrade scam by which white-savior consultants jet off to poor countries to lecture locals whose backs their fat salaries are extracted off.

It's about twice the price of Cadbury's in the UK, but significantly better quality. I often buy it when I see it, and it has fairly good shop distribution now.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#138

Post by yorwba »

khuey wrote: post #108
killtimeatwork wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where China was smart I guess. They didn't sign any treaty which forced them into free trade or IP protection, but instead slowly allowed their industries to build up via IP theft and strong protectionism. Now they have giant companies on par with the West's. Whereas everyone who joined the EU in the decade of 2000 (and the Washington Consensus before that in the nineties) is now a pawn of the Western capital…

They did sign those treaties (e.g. with WTO membership), they just ignored them.

They didn't exactly ignore them.

A WTO member can either comply with their treaty obligations (e.g. reducing barriers to trade) or have other members apply their own remedies (e.g. punitive tariffs.)

If the effect of compliance is worse than the punishment (e.g. underdeveloped industry eliminated by foreign competitors vs. continuing to operate despite high tariffs) they'll not comply.

If the punishment is worse (e.g. industry is basically competitive, but tariffs would make products hard to sell in foreign countries) they'll choose compliance.

At the bilateral level, there's not much difference to the pre-WTO situation, which might make you wonder whether it's all pointless. The advantage of the WTO is that it provides a shared target for compliance: if a country follows WTO rules, pretty much every other member will be happy with that. Which is a bigger incentive than having to please every trading partner individually.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#139

Post by viro »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #107
jopsen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those supermarkets really all that French or Belgian anymore? In practice, many large companies are owned by investors from all over the world looking for diversification.

The specific ownership and the details are irrelevant, what matters is that a large chunk of their profits is extracted out of the country and doesn't get reinvested.

Thats not how the economy works. Walmart profits don't get "invested" in the States. They get invested into Walmart. The wages and taxes those wages fuel always gets applied locally. Nothing is being "extracted". Thats just nationalist bullshit used to fuel protectionism.

Re: Ghana will no longer sell cocoa to Switzerland

#140

Post by jeffreyrogers »

jariel wrote: post #24
m12k wrote: post #15

I'm reading the book The Divide at the moment. It makes the argument that it takes time and the right conditions to build up an industry - infrastructure needs to be built, education and a skilled labor pool with the necessary know-how as well. To begin with, a fledgling industry in a developing country cannot compete with those of already industrialized countries - these are already so effective that they can underc…

So Saudi Arabia, UAE, Canada and Saudi Arabia are 'stuck' selling natural resources? I think it's probably a much better plant to extract a good deal of wealth from the natural resource and invest it in other areas of higher value creation, even in the same vertical. There's a good chance that Ghana's policies are needlessly constrained. More obviously there are 100 things Ghana could do to improve living conditions…

It's called the Dutch disease for a reason. When Holland discovered large natural gas deposits the entire rest of their economy became less competitive. High wages from natural resources (and oil is the worst for this because it is so valuable) raise wages in the rest of the economy. This makes your exports less competitive. It also shifts employment into the natural resources sector (due to high wages), when many of those people would maybe be better allocated elsewhere.

They only country that has been able to do what you're talking about successfully is Norway and maybe the US and Canada, which have much better institutions than anywhere in Africa and the Middle East.

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