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The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

strongtowns.org

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Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#61

Post by jcims »

enriquto wrote: post #60
jcims wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? That’s incredible! The mall near me that has all of that requires a few thousand me…

> How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? Exactly. Most small towns in the suburbs of Paris are just like that if you live…

Sorry for the snark, it wasn’t necessary. I’m not particularly persuaded but i didn’t have to be a dick about it. :)

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#62

Post by enriquto »

jcims wrote: post #61
enriquto wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How delightful! There are clothes, jewelry, music, furniture, hardware, electronics, cosmetics stores all within a few meters of your home? Eyewear, bookstores, mobile phone, candle shops and gift stores? Coffee shops, cinnabon, movie theaters and stores wholly dedicated to hats, mattresses and overpriced tea? All within a short walk? Exactly. Most small towns in the suburbs of Paris are just like that if you live…

Sorry for the snark, it wasn’t necessary. I’m not particularly persuaded but i didn’t have to be a dick about it. :)

Ha! didn't notice the snark on my first read. What can I say? Just come here and take a walk ;)

EDIT: no need to take a plane... if you need some proof, look at this google maps/street view link: https://goo.gl/maps/iDirDFH16d8xMvwx9 All the things that you mention on your "snarky" message can be indeed found on the couple of pedestrian streets that you see here. Except for the cinema, but there is a theatre (now closed due to covid). If you want a cinema you need to walk less than 2km to the one in the next town.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#63

Post by enriquto »

procinct wrote: post #50
enriquto wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who wants to drive downtown to get shoes or a tie? I had a hard time understanding the meaning of this sentence, and its context. The idea of "driving downtown to go shopping" is backwards to me. You live downtown, and walk a few meters to the shop. Then I realized that you may be from the USA, where your cities seem to be turned inside out. You are indeed a funny country.

I’m not from the USA but the statement makes perfect sense to me. I’m not quite sure what you imply with your point, that everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent.

> everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent

Both, really. From all the people I know, there's only one person who cannot walk from his place to a nearby bakery. And in that case it was a conscious decision to "become isolated" and buy a house in an unlikely place. Walking every morning to buy bread for breakfast is a deeply entrenched cultural thing. I cannot really imagine living somewhere where this is not possible. Most of urbanized places are indeed downtown.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#64

Post by Kihashi »

enriquto wrote: post #40
axaxs wrote: post #15

One interesting article I read but can't be bothered to find now mentioned how we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos. It was such a simple but seemingly good suggestion. Already have huge amounts of parking, tons of floor area for convenience, and stores would change to those that better served the tenants. And as that happens, more people from outside would be incentivized to visit. Perhaps th…

> we could better utilize malls by making top floors of condos You are a few steps away to rediscovering the European city (if by an extremely convoluted way).

American Shopping malls were modeled on European town centers. They just got a little lost as the concept was copied.

But mixed use development is becoming more common in the US. I know of 2 or 3 mixed use developments that have opened up around my city.

> What was new about it was that it was an entirely enclosed system of shops with no exterior windows and a climate-controlled interior. This was a particularly good fit for Minnesota with its cold winters. Until then, shops in malls and arcades were connected by outside walkways. This new design was on two levels, had a department store at each end, and escalators to bring shoppers up to the second level and down again when they’d completed walking the mall. And it had a central court with skylights, fountains, plants and seating.

> Gruen was inspired by centrally planned urban re-development in his hometown of Vienna, Austria, that took place there after the democratic uprisings in 1848.

https://msourceideas.com/the-origin-story-of-the-enclosed-sh...

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#66

Post by Guest42 »

dagw wrote: post #53
Guest42 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me there was a sense of adventure going to the mall because the products would change unpredictably. It was like a living art piece that served great food and could lead to unexpected purchases. It was also fun in the pre-internet era of having the chance to run into someone you knew randomly whereas social media creates a seemingly constant contact.

For many it was also the only place around where parents/adults would be happy to let kids hang out completely unattended.

Exactly, 20 dollars would lead to an entire day of adventures.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#67

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

jcims wrote: post #8
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't tell if satire or woefully unaware.

That's rude. It's a valid perspective. I dumped thousands of dollars in arcade games in the 70's and 80's and spent at least as much buying tshirts and toys and pizza or walking down to the theater and watching a movie.

I was more responding to the idea that the primary reason girls were at the mall is because they were following boys who were playing video games.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#68

Post by quickthrowman »

prepend wrote: post #5
kiba wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it fair to compare value and tax revenue of the 9 downtown blocks to the mall? Aren’t malls usually built in cheap areas because the land has low value, while downtown is typically, well, down town. Well, downtown have something going for it if it's valuable. Land that are of low value aren't exactly prime estate. Also the mall space is including parking lots and the 9 blocks have parking somewhere but not in thos…

Parking lots are not very valuable. I meant that the mall parcel includes retail space and parking while the 9 blocks is only retail space. So it’s comparing different densities. I was thinking that there is probably some parking lots for the people doing that shopping that should be included when comparing taxes per area. I think it would be an accurate comparison if those 9 blocks were replaced by a mall, but this…

> Parking lots are not very valuable.

??? It depends entirely on the location of the parking lot.

The land value of a downtown parking lot which is the same size as a high-rise building lot next door is going to be similar. Obviously the high-rise is worth more money since there’s a building with leasable space, but the land value of both lots will be very close. A parking lot doesn’t need to remain a parking lot forever, you could borrow money and build a building on it.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#69

Post by steveBK123 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #23
freeone3000 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having residential above retail is super common in non-American cities. It works pretty well in Montreal -- condo buildings usually have a grocery store and coffee shop in the lobby, while a strip of three-story buildings might have two stories of residential above things like a collectibles store or a martial arts dojo, with a grocery store on the corner. The problem with doing this with malls is you have minimum qu…

> Daylight requirements are a particular concern -- you can sell corners and edges, but you're left with a big space in the middle you can't use, unless you're willing to make the corner apartments expand that far. Or, since you're talking about the top floor, use skylights. You could even make it the top two floors, but each center unit is on both floors and has a "basement" without natural light. > Once you start d…

There are reasons for zoning requirements that skylights don't solve, and they are largely around egress. Some mall layouts may be conducive enough to having condos put on the top level, or one could design a modern mall for that now (I've seen a few).

However retrofitting onto many of the 80s-90s era malls with huge floorplans is unlikely to be economically feasible.

Re: The reason the local mall is failing (2018)

#70

Post by jfengel »

enriquto wrote: post #63
procinct wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not from the USA but the statement makes perfect sense to me. I’m not quite sure what you imply with your point, that everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent.

> everyone where you are from lives “downtown” or that people where you’re from can always just walk to an equivalent Both, really. From all the people I know, there's only one person who cannot walk from his place to a nearby bakery. And in that case it was a conscious decision to "become isolated" and buy a house in an unlikely place. Walking every morning to buy bread for breakfast is a deeply entrenched cultural…

Bakeries aren't generally found in malls. Malls are for items like shoes and socks -- items you get a few times a year, perhaps, not every day. Malls will have cafes that sell baked goods, but you probably wouldn't go there for your daily bread.

Sadly, bakeries in America are rare. Your daily bread comes from the supermarket. Much of it isn't baked on site, and it's designed to keep for several days. We don't have a tradition of daily fresh bread, which is too bad for a lot of reasons.

But Americans have plenty of food options so don't weep too much for us. If you want decent bread, it's available in many places, including many of those supermarkets and chain bakeries like Panera. It's not magnificent bread, but it's good. Magnificent bread is also available; it's just not a priority.

Americans do have a pretty dysfunctional relationship with food, and we'd be a lot healthier if we fixed it. But the mall isn't really part of that. That's more about the supermarket than the mall, and those are separate niches.

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