Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't do the math on this one, but it seems to me that the whole financial system (and all that's needed to ensure it's reliability and security) uses a bit more energy than Ukraine or Argentina.
The whole financial system actually has some usefulness: you can pay for things with it. Anywhere in the world. Without paying $30 in fees, without waiting for 3 days to clear. It's also not likely to run on 60% coal. Since bitcoin zealots have moved to pretending that it's a "store of value", you can compare Bitcoin to the energy used to secure the gold in the world. Hint: it's much more worse.
WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
301–310 of 321 posts
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not that much compared to other direct or indirect causes.
Uh... Selling a single token? 8.7MWh[1] That's slightly less than the average US household consumes in a year. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/nfts-hot-effect-earth-climate/
Blockchain energy usage is not really proportional to transaction volume, they're only connected in very indirect ways (more usage -> more adoption -> higher price? -> reward for mining a block increases in value -> miners can pay for more energy while still turning a profit)
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Overall, I think I agree with your analogy, which illustrates the complexity of the problem. If I follow, you are claiming that: 1. Lives saved by military intervention are unpredictable 2. The people killed by military intervention are categorically different than those saved 3. The number of lives saved changes over time. 4. Military intervention on average kills more than it saves (Today) 5. There are ulterior mot…
My claims are similar to which you identified, but stronger in some points, so let me put them explicitly. 1. Drone strikes aren't saving lives in an immediately obvious fashion ("these targets were about to launch an attack on us"), but only indirectly, if at all ("these targets may or may not have been planning some sort of attack in the future, which they may or may not have been able to execute; but we're sure th…
3a. Do drone strikes exacerbate or mitigate the problem violent actors and actions in the long run.
5. if decision makers are capable of assessing 3a and acting in accordance with public interest.
Regarding 3a, I can see the obvious logic of how drone strikes(or any bombing/killing) could militarize more people and think it is plausible. It is worth considering that there are other factors which can militarize people as well, such systemic injustice, domestic violence, poverty, and cults of personality. These can continue independent of strikes and still increase the number of militarized people in it's absence. It is also worth noting that the capacity for harm for those already militarized increases with organization, which strikes purportedly disrupt.
It would absolutely be worth the cost to collect solid data on the drivers of militarization. I would love to see it and admit that I have not looked deeply into the subject. Most discussions on the subject I have seen take 3a or its opposite as a foundational assumption.
Regarding 5, I wholeheartedly agree that in reality there are additional motivations at play. However, I am generally skeptical of traditional military-industrial complex profiteering motive and think it is over complex. I do not think that defense companies lobbying for war and has a significant impact on it, although companies provide the means and certainly profit off of it. Similarly, I dont think military decision makers seek war for personal gain. There are a sufficient number of other motivations political decision makers to engage in warfare without such elaborate and clandestine explanations. I suspect personal political benefit, national economic benefit, and propagating social ideals at the global level are at the top of this list. You are right in that minimizing the long term loss at the global scale is not the main objective.
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
And how many countries of energy does the other financial system use, for comparison?
How many orders of magnitude more transactions are handled by the financial system compared to bitcoin?
Neither of those systems have an energy usage that is directly proportional to transaction count, _especially_ Bitcoin.
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
Curious how that works? Parallel blockchain? But how do you “migrate”? Incremental migration?
Yep it's another blockchain running in parallel, called the "beacon chain." Anyone can deposit ETH in a particular contract on the main chain, and the beacon chain will read that and credit them ETH on the beacon chain. The quickest migration is basically to upgrade both clients to talk to each other, and for the old client, instead of choosing blocks with the highest hashpower, choose blocks whose hashes are chosen…
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#306“But we all know the wag’s definition of a philanthropist: a man whose charity increases directly as the square of the distance.” ― George Eliot, Middlemarch
Well, if the evil side can exploit this phenomenon to great success (e.g. drone strikes allowing to kill people halfway across the world, and making it feel like playing a video game from 1990s), why can't the good side? We can despair about the nature of man all we want, but if in the meantime, we can get rich people here to spend a lot of money on helping people far away, that's still a huge net benefit for the wor…
There's also so many faraway causes, how do you prioritize?
The people I know, and the problems that I or they have, are not necessarily the most important in the world. But I have a better chance of doing something appropriate about them, because I'm not limited to vague stereotypes.
Trying to help with something that you know about firsthand also increases the odds that you will be addressing a problem which is common but overlooked by society because there isn't enough money, glamour, or self-actualization involved.
I strongly believe that a personal connection is not just a gimmick for these reasons.
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it really evil to use drones to kill evil people?
That's a specialized version of the question, is it really evil to kill evil people? But it's also a bit off-topic; the more important one is, are only evil people getting killed by drone strikes executed by people who (claim to) try to kill only evil people? The answer to that is a resounding no. We can debate the specifics of this, but it wasn't my point. My point was, the concept of layers of indirection making pe…
Keywords: Bangladesh arsenic UNICEF wells
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you think the USA would stop asserting its hegemony if the world used Bitcoin instead of USD, I don't know what to tell you.
I don't mean to imply that switching to bitcoin will stop wars, but rather just remind that the true cost (and value) of USD isn't in it's infrastructure, but in the efforts taken to enforce it's dominance. If we imagine the ideal future 100 years from now, with a more balanced world order and economic justice for all, then we have to experiment with radically different systems at some point in between. Not saying th…
Sure, but I think for any effect a bitcoin-like system has any chance to have on the US's ability to wage war, it will have the same effect on the US government's ability to fund massive social programs. That is, bitcoin is going in the opposite direction from what is needed for achieving the world we hope for.
> My takeaway from the issue of its energy usage is that trying to save the climate by discouraging energy usage is kind of fruitless because society will always want more; focusing on replacing polluting energy sources with clean ones is the sustainable systemic solution.
While I agree with you that this is how things are looking, and it is also the most important long-term goal, I personally don't believe that we have any hope of avoiding catastrophic climate failure if we don't focus on drastically reducing consumption in the short term. To me bitcoin has proved exactly how chasing free economic growth will always drink up any electricity we can produce.
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you - I heard the 'if you add the costs of Visa / banking it evens out' and was not sure how to tackle it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina - 44 Million people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine - 41 M (handwaving around bits that got invaded etc) So is the global population of the banking industry comparable to 41 M ? UK employees: 1.1M US Employees: 8.3M So I went round a few houses and there is a l…
But here you are comparing apple and oranges. The energy one technical component uses versus the energy that all the people that use another technology uses. Bitcoin also have support systems around it, hardware production lines, and a lot of people who use it that you don't include in your comparison.
This was my first attempt at it - and it seems bitcoin loses badly - the current bitcoin energy use is easily comparable or greater than the energy use of the people, buildings etc of the global finance industry.
And bitcoin still cannot buy me a latte at starbucks.
So it's a weird speculative / money controls avoidance thing that happens to subsidise dubious global activity to the tune of Argentina's electrical usage.
It has always seemed BS - it still seems BS. And speculators have grown rich not on a technology that will replace currency but on massive migration of dubious activity (Chinese currency outflows). That Tesla was paid for by Chinese billionaires securing their gains.
:-(
Edit: so dissing bitcoin and Tesla is probably a bad idea on HN.
But to be fair I am not dissing Tesla - it's a genuine company making genuine product. It just seems to be marketing towards a ... marketing archetype that got lucky with their Crypto.
You see, to make cash from Chinese money laundering, one would previously have had to be a lawyer in the City or a real estate agent selling central London flats. But we democratised access to this flood of grey market cash via Bitcoin.
Maybe I would feel differently with a couple of coins in a wallet somewhere. But from a regulatory point of view, it's still taking cash from the poorest globally.
Re: WallStreetBets members adopt 3,500 gorillas in six days
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, if the evil side can exploit this phenomenon to great success (e.g. drone strikes allowing to kill people halfway across the world, and making it feel like playing a video game from 1990s), why can't the good side? We can despair about the nature of man all we want, but if in the meantime, we can get rich people here to spend a lot of money on helping people far away, that's still a huge net benefit for the wor…
There may be a tradeoff between the distance of someone you want to help and effectiveness - how much do you really know about their problems or the solutions you are funding? Have you ever tried to figure out requirements for a project at work that depend on a group of co-workers on another continent in a different culture? There's also so many faraway causes, how do you prioritize? The people I know, and the proble…