Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants • Hacker News Board

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#481

Post by afc » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #417

afc wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use it as a store of value. Because I expect that it will continue to significantly appreciate (it has gone up 10X or more in the last year!), I couldn't care less about its volatility. I expect that as its exponential rise slows down (like all exponential growth, it must come to an end, perhaps after a few more halving cycles), the volatility will decrease accordingly. You're right that there are other systems to…

> I use it as a store of value. Because I expect that it will continue to significantly appreciate Then you don't use it as a store of value; you use it as a speculative investment.

Meh, not really. At the end of the day, same as gold, bonds, stocks, fiat and real estate, I use it just to park the outputs of my production today, with what I think is a reasonable expectation that I'll be able to get it back in the future (which I use together with other similar asset types). So far, it has greatly fulfilled my expectations and I have little doubts that it'll continue to do so. I consider it very useful.

But sure, you're free call it whatever you want and continue to push your world view, and miss the point that, for me, today, it is very useful.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#482

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

bostonsre wrote: post #478

heavyset_go wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a book payment processor use Bitcoin when the average Bitcoin transaction fee is about the same price as many new books? With Bitcoin, you're looking at spending about $50 if you buy a $25 book.

I meant the phrase "by the book" payment processor, not a book payment processor. I'm a lot less worried about the risk of centralization posed by visa than I am about over half of all bitcoins being mined in an authoritarian country. > by the book: > strictly according to the rules.

Ah, sorry, I misread your post.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#483

Post by tw600040 » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #360

tw600040 wrote: post #175

If BTC does catch up, the current inequality of the world will look like an anthill in comparison to the inequality that BTC will create. I can't imagine the world letting that happen..

The truth is complete opposite. Fiat currencies have created insane amount of wealth inequality, because they benefit those who have the power to borrow cash and own assets. With bitcoin, people can maintain their purchasing power and wealth. Bitcoin isn't pegged to CPI which means that it increases in value when economic productivity increases. CPI pegged currencies move purchasing power from labor to capital.

That is in theory. If BTC becomes legit one fine day, what percentage of the world owns BTC and what percentage of the world's wealth will they own? If that doesn't scare you I don't know what will..

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#484

Post by MrMan » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #429

qeternity wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe nobody really wants to spend Bitcoin because its only use-case is wild speculation and this is just a marketing stunt on Visa’s behalf.

People will spend Bitcoin, grudgingly (remember the pizza? what a fool, never spend your Bitcoin!), thanks to Visa people will actually be able to spend it. Thanks to Visa Bitcoin will not be decentralized anymore either.

If it keeps going up why does decentralization matter? Poor people are decentralized, I don't know any rich people who are decentralized

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#485

Post by MrMan » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #329

iijj wrote: post #122

Maybe I don't understand it correctly, but after having recently done my taxes, it seems to me you'd generate a capital gain or loss that has to be captured on IRS Form 8949 every time such a thing triggered bitcoin to be converted to USD, goods or services. Or is it some nudge-nudge-wink-wink situation where everyone, including the IRS, ignores such a thing unless the sums involved are large.

What people do is take out a loan in USD against their bitcoin, and spend that. This is all done instantly and automatically by various wallet apps that let you spend you Bitcoin as USD.

This is a risk less trade

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#486

Post by MrMan » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #360

tw600040 wrote: post #175

If BTC does catch up, the current inequality of the world will look like an anthill in comparison to the inequality that BTC will create. I can't imagine the world letting that happen..

The truth is complete opposite. Fiat currencies have created insane amount of wealth inequality, because they benefit those who have the power to borrow cash and own assets. With bitcoin, people can maintain their purchasing power and wealth. Bitcoin isn't pegged to CPI which means that it increases in value when economic productivity increases. CPI pegged currencies move purchasing power from labor to capital.

How do you obtain 1 btc if you are poor? Doing work for well-off holders? Sounds identical to regular life and inequality is baked in

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#487

Post by MrMan » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #467

imtringued wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and own assets. Assets like Bitcoin? > Bitcoin isn't pegged to CPI which means that it increases in value when economic productivity increases. Bitcoin increases much faster than CPI, that's a sign of a bubble. The mystery is that Bitcoin survived consecutive bubbles. I can't explain it, it's what it is. The vast majority of alternative cryptocurrencies had one bubble and died after that exactly as one would expect.…

I don't mean inflation. Even if inflation was 0%, it means that money didn't change value relative to CPI . CPI tracks the value of customer goods, which depreciate in value because productivity increases. Essentially, the value of dollar is tied to the value of bread. Assets, such as stocks, real estate, gold and bitcoin maintain their value better. That's why those assets seem to go up measured in dollar value. Tho…

Wealthy people who use leverage actually are very likely to enjoy shrinking assets, there is no magic bullet to risk management

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#488

Post by thehappypm » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #129

kajumix wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-BTC sentiment on HN puzzles me. There is no intelligent critique. The doubts that are endlessly repeated here have been addressed in detail, and are available online. Scaling and transaction throughput, energy consumption, state attacks, protocol weakness and lack of backing have all been responded to, to a sufficiently satisfactory degree.

The core issue I've seen that goes unanswered is what problem does BTC solve? The answers I've seen so far are: 1. Avoiding Venezuelan hyper-inflation - it is a use-case, but doesn't really apply to the United States for example. 2. Store of value - volatility is way too high and there are much better alternatives (Treasury bonds) 3. Evading capital controls - it is a use-case, but not really applicable to most citiz…

The main issue with BTC being a store of value is that it's already hyper hoarded. Look it up -- it's far, far more concentrated in a few hands than any real-world currency or any real-world asset.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#489

Post by MrMan » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

postalrat wrote: post #17

thebean11 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it reduce the value? Off-chain transactions are something the core Bitcoin team are very much in favor of.

That sounds like they are in favor of not using bitcoin.

If your purchasing power is calculated in bitcoin but your purchasing in some other currency, there is no real problem there. Bitcoin network can get used one per day for settlement, and the rest of the time use visa digital coins! Which they call dollars or euros, some differently named legacy meatspace fiat. Then bitcoin is free to just swim around in libertarian platonic ideal of freedom from societies obligations and rules

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#490

Post by rednerrus » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #297

rednerrus wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the value add? How does it store value? How do you get your money (in large volume), into or out of BTC with a transaction associated with you or your company? It's not even a good anonymous store of wealth anymore. It can't handle transaction volume at any kind of reasonable scale. It also doesn't have an order book deep enough to facilitate large transactions in the market. You'll have to figure out a deal…

The value add is marginal, but people will choose something that’s a little bit better if it exists. That value add is that it’s scarce, and its scarcity is unlikely to be tampered with. This means people don’t have to jump through hoops to keep up with inflation. That’s it.

Why is scarcity a value add? The difficulty and costs associated with getting money into and out of the ecosystem have to offset the scarcity value add. I'm still not convinced that scarcity is valuable. It surely benefits the people who were early adopters but what is the value to new investors? Not to mention how incredibly inefficient all of this is.