Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash • Hacker News Board

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#61

Post by skohan » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #27

oilbagz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People can change their mind So, a new era of abstinence is ahead of us. There is simply no other way for anyone to feel safe than to simply abstain. Personally I'm okay with this, but I know a lot of teenagers who grew up thinking sex is an important facet of their identity who will disagree... Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show,…

> There is simply no other way for anyone to feel safe than to simply abstain. Well, it's the same as with anti-natalism: People who don't care about this stuff, will still have kids / take 'consent risks' to have sex. An important complication about the topic at hand is that a lot of human courtship / flirting, involves plausible deniability. Eg extensive eye contact in a bar can indicate sexual interest, or perhaps…

You're absolutely right. Human sexuality predates language, so it shouldn't be surprising that it continues to have a non-verbal, sub-rational component.

I think the discussion of explicit consent is really intended as guidance for children/teenagers who don't the dance yet. For experienced adults it's possible to navigate all of these grey areas and read the underlying signals while being crystal clear about playing within the boundaries which are acceptable to both sides. But for kids who are still figuring this out, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that people use their words and be unambiguous.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#62

Post by xg15 » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:13 AM UTC

oilbagz wrote: post #58

viraptor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I understand abstain and don't care about it in this context. I'm speaking out against the "change their mind after the fact" idea which gets brought up way too often as a possibility. It's disrespectful when discussing consent. You responded to a message which mentioned changing one's mind in terms of continuous consent, not false rape accusations. These are different things. If you want to talk about false rape…

"Change their mind after the fact" = you had consent, you no longer have it, stop what you're doing - i.e. abstain from further activity. And that is the point - you're already in the danger zone if you've started and consent has been retracted. Better to just abstain entirely and not engage in sexual activity, at all, under those conditions. No means no, always. To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no"…

Have you ever actually tried it out or are you just talking about your own imagination here?

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#63

Post by pdkl95 » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

  Man's Lawyer: OK. Let's see. We're talking about a
                standard one night arrangement, right?
  Woman: I guess. Yeah.
  Man's Lawyer: So we'll say a dinner, complete sexual
                encounter, full penetraton, optional
                episode in the morning, right?
  Woman: Just slow down.
  Man: You know I personnally thought it'd be nice.
  Woman: Let me see this.
         My lawyer better see this one.
         For instance... the oral clause...
         seems a little sticky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ

Cherry 2000 may be a silly mess of a movie, but its depiction of the lawyerification of dating might have been surprisingly prescient.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#64

Post by oilbagz » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

auganov wrote: post #56

oilbagz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People can change their mind So, a new era of abstinence is ahead of us. There is simply no other way for anyone to feel safe than to simply abstain. Personally I'm okay with this, but I know a lot of teenagers who grew up thinking sex is an important facet of their identity who will disagree... Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show,…

It's been my impression that's exactly what it has been all along. Sex outside of marriage (or even just procreation) is a pretty bad idea but people are afraid to say it because it's "conservative". Sexual everything has become such a staple in some circles that people don't have an easy way of saying they're not interested in most of it.

Sex is the oldest form of political power, and provides the shortest path to irrational reactionary thought available to the modern propagandist or political operative intent on influencing culture over generations. Our current ("Western") ideals for how sexuality is to be portrayed by our social institutions doesn't allow for much escape from the negative effects that this power can have over the individual. Hopefully that will change. One way it can change, positively, is for people to learn abstinence culture and just refrain from the act, entirely.

If you never bother attempting to initiate sexual activity, you're pretty safe from those who would use the sex act to alter your life. And if you eschew participating in collective sex-culture, its pretty easy to keep this under control, at a personal level.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#65

Post by viraptor » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

oilbagz wrote: post #58

viraptor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I understand abstain and don't care about it in this context. I'm speaking out against the "change their mind after the fact" idea which gets brought up way too often as a possibility. It's disrespectful when discussing consent. You responded to a message which mentioned changing one's mind in terms of continuous consent, not false rape accusations. These are different things. If you want to talk about false rape…

"Change their mind after the fact" = you had consent, you no longer have it, stop what you're doing - i.e. abstain from further activity. And that is the point - you're already in the danger zone if you've started and consent has been retracted. Better to just abstain entirely and not engage in sexual activity, at all, under those conditions. No means no, always. To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no"…

> To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no" dilemma

Why protect yourself? Why is this a dilemma? If you stop when asked, it's not an assault.

If you're worried about this, you're worried about false rape accusations, not some dilemma about people changing their mind. "if you're not checking for continued consent every few milliseconds" is an imagined problem taken to extreme. People who actually change their mind during sex will tell you about it and not treat it as assault.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#66

Post by oilbagz » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:18 AM UTC

ginko wrote: post #34

oilbagz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People can change their mind So, a new era of abstinence is ahead of us. There is simply no other way for anyone to feel safe than to simply abstain. Personally I'm okay with this, but I know a lot of teenagers who grew up thinking sex is an important facet of their identity who will disagree... Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show,…

>Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show, is definitely in order. Conservative societies generally had more sex than we do now.

The safer or not-safer kind?

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#67

Post by oilbagz » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:22 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #65

oilbagz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Change their mind after the fact" = you had consent, you no longer have it, stop what you're doing - i.e. abstain from further activity. And that is the point - you're already in the danger zone if you've started and consent has been retracted. Better to just abstain entirely and not engage in sexual activity, at all, under those conditions. No means no, always. To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no"…

> To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no" dilemma Why protect yourself? Why is this a dilemma? If you stop when asked, it's not an assault. If you're worried about this, you're worried about false rape accusations, not some dilemma about people changing their mind. "if you're not checking for continued consent every few milliseconds" is an imagined problem taken to extreme. People who actually change th…

Because withdrawn-consent can be used offensively. False rape accusation do happen and have resulted in many, many ruined lives - of people who legitimately and honestly thought they had consent, where the court later did not agree.

Ignorance of this fact doesn't support your argument.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#68

Post by ginko » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:23 AM UTC

oilbagz wrote: post #66

ginko wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show, is definitely in order. Conservative societies generally had more sex than we do now.

The safer or not-safer kind?

If you think the Victorians typically used condoms or only had sex in wedlock then you're quite mistaken.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#69

Post by oilbagz » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #62

oilbagz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Change their mind after the fact" = you had consent, you no longer have it, stop what you're doing - i.e. abstain from further activity. And that is the point - you're already in the danger zone if you've started and consent has been retracted. Better to just abstain entirely and not engage in sexual activity, at all, under those conditions. No means no, always. To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no"…

Have you ever actually tried it out or are you just talking about your own imagination here?

Sure have. Never been raped, never been accused of it, and have a lot of happy, consensual sex all the time.

However, I will be teaching my teenage boys that "Yes is not always Yes, it can be changed", and that "No thanks, I'll abstain, even if you give me explicit consent" is always the safest approach.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#70

Post by viraptor » Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:26 AM UTC

oilbagz wrote: post #67

viraptor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To protect yourself from the "yes .. yes .. okay, no" dilemma Why protect yourself? Why is this a dilemma? If you stop when asked, it's not an assault. If you're worried about this, you're worried about false rape accusations, not some dilemma about people changing their mind. "if you're not checking for continued consent every few milliseconds" is an imagined problem taken to extreme. People who actually change th…

Because withdrawn-consent can be used offensively. False rape accusation do happen and have resulted in many, many ruined lives - of people who legitimately and honestly thought they had consent, where the court later did not agree. Ignorance of this fact doesn't support your argument.

I don't disagree false accusations happen. I'm saying that it's shitty to bring them up when a legitimate change of mind is discussed. Yet people keep popping up whatabouting this one, like someone's just waiting to accuse them of something.