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Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#31

Post by rebuilder »

oilbagz wrote: post #19
rodgerd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could - and I know this is a novel idea - treat people well and not be rapey.

Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then your partner changes their mind about it afterwards - for any reason they determine under their own agency, what is to be done to avoid the danger of being falsely accused of not having gained consent, other than to simply abstain? If consent can be retracted afte…

Who's talking about after the fact? You can consent to sex, then change your mind in the course of things. Maybe you just stop wanting to have sex, maybe your partner starts going into territory you're uncomfortable with, doesn't really matter. An app where you give consent beforehand can't handle real life.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#32

Post by nikanj »

oilbagz wrote: post #19
rodgerd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could - and I know this is a novel idea - treat people well and not be rapey.

Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then your partner changes their mind about it afterwards - for any reason they determine under their own agency, what is to be done to avoid the danger of being falsely accused of not having gained consent, other than to simply abstain? If consent can be retracted afte…

False accusations work just fine despite your abstinence. If the other person is lying about consent, what's stopping them from lying about the sex too?

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#33

Post by eru »

rebelos wrote: post #20
mam2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I feel no one is able to realize that at the end of the day, the bottom line is that there will NEVER exist a way to PROVE consent without doubt. Even if you say yes you could say no later. Even if you have marks, it could be some weird rough sex / kink thing. Am i really the only one to see it ?

Being sexually active is particularly dangerous for heterosexual women. It's nearly impossible to prove a rape case in court. Because of this, there has been some groundswell of support for relaxing the burden of proof in rape cases to a standard that might ultimately permit some false accusations to result in wrongful convictions (a horrifically bad idea that would likely be a Pandora's box imo). If you reduce this…

> If you reduce this down to the fundamental tension: either we have to ask women to become dramatically more vigilant and accept some nonzero risk of rape (more or less what we implicitly do already) OR we have to increase the likelihood of wrongful convictions.

There's a third way, but perhaps equally unappetizing: record all interactions.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#34

Post by ginko »

oilbagz wrote: post #12
phs318u wrote: post #2

This is a bit of a hot topic in Australia - and the world (rightly so). A sampling of news articles in the last week: https://www.theage.com.au/search?text=consent With respect to the idea of consent via app - it's simply a dumb idea. People can change their mind, use of the app can be forced, then there's the whole tracking and data privacy issues (the slut-shaming potential of this data can't be overstated, especia…

>People can change their mind So, a new era of abstinence is ahead of us. There is simply no other way for anyone to feel safe than to simply abstain. Personally I'm okay with this, but I know a lot of teenagers who grew up thinking sex is an important facet of their identity who will disagree... Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show,…

>Frankly, though, I think a more conservative society which treats sex with a lot more respect than the current shit-show, is definitely in order.

Conservative societies generally had more sex than we do now.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#35

Post by eru »

afarrell wrote: post #29
oilbagz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then your partner changes their mind about it afterwards - for any reason they determine under their own agency, what is to be done to avoid the danger of being falsely accused of not having gained consent, other than to simply abstain? If consent can be retracted afte…

Abstinence is the only answer _with an ironclad guarantee_. Fundamentally, sex requires trust and analog communication over a connection either physical or verbal.

Nope, you can still be falsely accused of almost anything.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#36

Post by oilbagz »

viraptor wrote: post #30
oilbagz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then your partner changes their mind about it afterwards - for any reason they determine under their own agency, what is to be done to avoid the danger of being falsely accused of not having gained consent, other than to simply abstain? If consent can be retracted afte…

"Change their mind" was never about changing mind afterwards. It's about "I don't like what you're doing, you should stop now" situation even if you were happy up to that point. You misunderstood the idea.

Or perhaps it is you who doesn't understand the word 'abstain'. If your partner changes mind mid-act, of course you stop - that is abstaining from further activity.

The point is, this is precisely the kind of confusion to avoid by maintaining abstinence as your primary mindset.

It is the only way to be sure: abstain at all costs, even if you were given consent, because that consent is not immutable.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#37

Post by oilbagz »

nikanj wrote: post #32
oilbagz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just a matter of 'not being rapey' - its a matter of agency over the sexual act. If you get consent from your partner, have sex with them, and then your partner changes their mind about it afterwards - for any reason they determine under their own agency, what is to be done to avoid the danger of being falsely accused of not having gained consent, other than to simply abstain? If consent can be retracted afte…

False accusations work just fine despite your abstinence. If the other person is lying about consent, what's stopping them from lying about the sex too?

We have legal tools for this already: Effective evidence-gathering by the investigating authority.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#38

Post by mFixman »

young_unixer wrote: post #5

(Off topic) Am I the only one who thinks the whole world is absolutely crazy right now? Like, in general, nothing seems to make sense anymore. When did I get transported into a parallel reality? I think it was 5 years ago after that LSD trip. Ever since then, things are getting increasingly weird /rant

The world hasn't changed. The way you consume media did.

Here's a thought exercise: treat every news article that talks about "proposal" or "suggestion" as a low-quality personal blog. Or even better: treat everything on the Internet as false and trust only what you have seen in real life.

The world becomes more clear when you realise that flat earthers don't really exist.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#39

Post by rebelos »

cmeacham98 wrote: post #28
mam2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I feel no one is able to realize that at the end of the day, the bottom line is that there will NEVER exist a way to PROVE consent without doubt. Even if you say yes you could say no later. Even if you have marks, it could be some weird rough sex / kink thing. Am i really the only one to see it ?

This is true for all forms of crime. No form of evidence is perfect: eyewitness accounts (human memory is terrible), DNA/fingerprinting/similar (mismatches do occur), circumstantial evidence (obviously not hard proof), confessions (people do dumb things in stressful situations, could be coerced), picture/video (becoming increasingly easy to fake, can be taken out of context). As a result, when looking at rape cases (…

While this is technically true, it's important to note that modern criminal justice systems are designed to minimize the likelihood of false convictions at the expense of increasing the likelihood of false acquittals. It's supposed to be very hard to achieve a conviction. And this feature is essential for social stability. History is replete with examples of disastrous alternatives.

Re: Australia: Sex consent app proposal sparks backlash

#40

Post by eru »

young_unixer wrote: post #5

(Off topic) Am I the only one who thinks the whole world is absolutely crazy right now? Like, in general, nothing seems to make sense anymore. When did I get transported into a parallel reality? I think it was 5 years ago after that LSD trip. Ever since then, things are getting increasingly weird /rant

> Am I the only one who thinks the whole world is absolutely crazy right now?

Why the whole world? Humanity ain't homogeneous.

Perhaps you might benefit from changing your bubble (or echo chamber).

See eg https://www.econlib.org/archives/2012/03/my_beautiful_bu.htm... and https://www.econlib.org/archives/2013/04/make_your_own_b.htm...

Or for a more drastic step, consider moving to a place that's more aligned with what you like.

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