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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#261

Post by tucosan »

jessermeyer wrote: post #204
akudha wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of them are never the same ever after Can you share what happened to them? Also, you mentioned 3 week retreats. Can you share what changes (good or bad) you experienced during these long retreats?

I encountered this and wrote about it in other meditation thread. Here I've inlined it below. Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you…

I attended a Zen retreat in my late twenties. I had very little experience with meditation practice back then. We meditated four times for 90 minutes each day for about 10 days. It was a beautiful experience. The sangha was great. The food was simple but very tasty. When we didn't meditate, we worked in the garden and prepared food together. On the 6th or 7th day of the retreat I took a walk alone through the countryside. The meditation practice had made me very receptive to all sensual inputs. Sound, taste, smell and colour felt like someone dialed them to their maximum values. I walked along a small trail and encountered a snail making it's slow journey across my path. I stopped, and just watched her as she worked her way towards the other side.

That very moment I was hit by a realisation that I still - years later - can't really put into the appropriate words. It felt like a veil suddenly lifted. The world exposed itself in all its complexity and aesthetic beauty. The integration and the interdependence of all things was suddenly visible to me without any mental filters. The abstractions were gone. The semiotics were gone. The dualism was gone.

It felt like I suddenly and violently woke up from a deep slumber.

There was this strong realisation that I was deeply embedded in the universe. The leaves blowing in the wind, the snail, the pebbles on the trail, the grass, the sky, the universe and myself in it were just one thing. I felt like I was suspended in the very "beingness" of it all.

Back then, I had no means to integrate this existential experience into everyday life. The giant question marks it raised stuck with me over the years. Intense meditation practise can create very powerful shifts in perception of reality. In hindsight, I believe that I was way too inexperienced to wield the powerful tool that is meditation. I stopped meditation practice for a few years after this experience. I felt that I ventured too far offshore. I suddenly realised how deep and unexplored the ocean that is perception are, once we swim out of the shallow water. Back then, I decided to quickly swim back to shore and stopped my meditation practice for a few years.

I've rekindled my meditation praxis with the same sangha a few years later. But I stayed vigilant to not venture too fast too far out into unexplored territories of perception.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#262

Post by seigando »

prophesi wrote: post #258
seigando wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but those professors weren't claiming to be shining examples of ethics or practices that were supposed to lead to ethical behavior. Anyways, basically your point is that meditation is like drugs in that it gets you high and helps you check out? Wow, how profound, definitely somebody I would give control of my life over to.

Erm, neither was the author of The Mind Illuminated. It’s literally just a textbook for how to meditate for western audiences. I’m not sure how you got that from my comment. Not even sure what you mean by that last sentence. I’m sorry that even mentioning a substance had you jump to such conclusions.

>Erm, neither was the author of The Mind Illuminated. It’s literally just a textbook for how to meditate for western audiences.

Now you're coming across like you haven't read the very book that you recommend.

>I’m not sure how you got that from my comment. Not even sure what you mean by that last sentence. I’m sorry that even mentioning a substance had you jump to such conclusions.

Reread the comment I replied to.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#263

Post by morpheos137 »

pure_simplicity wrote: post #197
froh wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the path from oral tradition in some languages (Aramaic, hebrew, then also greek and latin) to writeups in various languages (greek, latin, then some hebrew) to what we happen to hold in our hands today is a bumpy ride, which in and by itself makes clear that "the bible" is a temporary and local consensus which has changed in the past and will evolve in the future. the books we see today are translations of heavily c…

That's a common misconception that perhaps Ehrmann deliberately pushes. He himself says that no core doctrines of Christianity were changed by the variants and that the books we have today are essentially the same as the originals, though not word for word identical.[1] Few who cast unwarranted doubt upon the New Testament realize how extremely sceptical they would have to be about every other piece of ancient writin…

I know it is not "in fashion" today but the description of Megan's illness, resistant to antipsychotics as it was, "arguing with Jesus" calling her self "evil," etc, pretty much matches up with the traditional accounts of demonic possession. Suppose there are anti-human intelligences in another plain of reality and that they can metaphysically sense a "vacant" vessel, like somebody in deep meditation. Such individuals would be at elevated risk of demonic possession.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#264

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

I did prayers as a Catholic daily for about a decade straight in a past life. I would tell any non religious person who has never done meditation to completely and utterly ignore it outright. It is utter nonsense, a waste of time, energy, and does nothing for you. If you are not an introspective person, prayer will not magically aid you in being better at it. Also too much introspection leads to way too much overthinking in life.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#265

Post by seigando »

apatters wrote: post #217
apatters wrote: post #91

People are usually attracted to various meditative practices because they want to change the way their brain works. There is a large degree of overlap between traditional meditation and psychotherapies based on mindfulness and CBT. The efficacy of these therapies is grounded in a strong and growing body of research (this includes research into their risks). Why not dispense with the woo and approach healing the mind…

I like how the meditation cultists were happy to downvote this but couldn't actually formulate a response. Proves my point.

I don’t think you did a good job of delineating the ‘woo’ from the not and your tone was pretty dismissive without presenting any justification

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#266

Post by ta988 »

thevardanian wrote: post #203
blobbers wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone ignorant, and I mean no disrespect by saying this... this thread reads like an H.P. Lovecraft or Dan Brown novel. Please keep this thread alive, it's fascinating!

Psychedelics man... They'll mess you up.

And you're the only one that may not notice.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#267

Post by prophesi »

seigando wrote: post #262
prophesi wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, neither was the author of The Mind Illuminated. It’s literally just a textbook for how to meditate for western audiences. I’m not sure how you got that from my comment. Not even sure what you mean by that last sentence. I’m sorry that even mentioning a substance had you jump to such conclusions.

>Erm, neither was the author of The Mind Illuminated. It’s literally just a textbook for how to meditate for western audiences. Now you're coming across like you haven't read the very book that you recommend. >I’m not sure how you got that from my comment. Not even sure what you mean by that last sentence. I’m sorry that even mentioning a substance had you jump to such conclusions. Reread the comment I replied to.

We're this far into the thread and you've yet to tell me why I'm so wrong, and why you're the guru.

Edit: oops sorry for asking why your opinion matters and mine doesn't

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#268

Post by ta988 »

Nemrod67 wrote: post #147
mulberrybush wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is derived from kriya yoga, not Vāmācāra. Another similar online tutorial is https://www.aypsite.org/10.html . Real Vāmācāra by definition involves breaking all taboos - see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hiKDMsIHn8 (warning - it is pretty horrific)

Watching the doc, all I see is LARP. Why do we consider those seriously while making fun of LaVey's rituals?

Most human activities could be seen as that. An american screaming madly at its tv screen showing a football game with ads telling them what to buy. A priest burning frankincense and telling other humans what to do... Those are all meaningful for the people practicing them and can look ridiculous for others.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#269

Post by seigando »

prophesi wrote: post #267
seigando wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Erm, neither was the author of The Mind Illuminated. It’s literally just a textbook for how to meditate for western audiences. Now you're coming across like you haven't read the very book that you recommend. >I’m not sure how you got that from my comment. Not even sure what you mean by that last sentence. I’m sorry that even mentioning a substance had you jump to such conclusions. Reread the comment I replied to.

We're this far into the thread and you've yet to tell me why I'm so wrong, and why you're the guru. Edit: oops sorry for asking why your opinion matters and mine doesn't

>you've yet to tell me why I'm so wrong

You're wrong about this. Maybe I haven't done it as explicitly as you want, but that's the point. For such a great 'meditator' you pay too much attention to your own thoughts.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#270

Post by rafaelvasco »

potatoman22 wrote: post #215
rafaelvasco wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most will disagree with me but: Those "waking fantasies" are the result of dilligent meditation. They occur because the brain activates some senses which aren't normally used. But as mainstream Science knows little about them, they're treated as "psychosis" and "fantasies". I can't say about her case specifically, but overall, I can assure you, they're not. But the thing is, the proof can't be shown. It must be exper…

How are these activated senses different from our normal senses? How do they differ from psychosis? Could you offer some terms used to describe them so I could look more into this subject?

They're sometimes referred to as "Extrasensory perception", that is the ability to perceive things using senses which are not the base ones. The things perceived by these extra senses can be excluded from psychosis if in a controlled experiment. For example. One person holds a card with a number in one room. Another person with these senses activated, can then perceive the number correctly a number of times higher or much higher than the chance margin. Several experiments have been made on these phenomenons (which are in fact natural) for decades, with a higher than average degree of success. There's several disclosed papers from CIA for example, describing them in detail.
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