Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants • Hacker News Board

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#191

Post by foepys » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

rawtxapp wrote: post #147

foepys wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain to me how scaling is solved in bitcoin. The lighting network requires an on-chain transaction to create and close a channel both times. Even if the world population were static it would take months to open a channel for everybody. Companies also need multiple channels each. LN also requires a constant observation of the LN network or malicious actors can just take more from a channel than allowed. This…

> Please explain to me how scaling is solved in bitcoin. The lighting network requires an on-chain transaction to create and close a channel both times. Channel factories solve this issue by being able to create and close many channels at once. > LN also requires a constant observation of the LN network or malicious actors can just take more from a channel than allowed. These are called watchtowers, they never have c…

Channel factories do not work globally as far as I understand them. They only work within a group of addresses that know they won't close the channels every other hour or everybody would have to create yet another channel. It sounds very similar to a credit union.

Watchtowers are what I meant with payment processors. You need to pay them to watch the chain in case the other party tries to literally steal from you. You can call them whatever you want, it's a third-party, just like Visa.

I love how all these cryptocurrency concepts have "traditional" counterparts, btw. Or it's rather the other way around.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#192

Post by auc » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

SigmundA wrote: post #180

hnrodey wrote: post #108

One of the reasons I'm bullish on Bitcoin over the next decade is precisely because of the anti-BTC sentiment on this board.

“But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” -Sagan

Columbus also deserved to be laughed at. People in his time period knew the world was round and even had a pretty accurate estimate of its radius, but he (very erroneously) thought it was way smaller. That's why he thought he landed in India.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#193

Post by quesera » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #168

kajumix wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will cheer for the success of ETH2 as well. The reason I like Lightning better is because the engineer in me wants to freeze the base layer and do the experimental layers in isolation. Internet infra is all layered for good reason.

The OSI layering model of internet infra is largely a myth, a simplification for students. It's similar to C is called "portable assembly" despite compilers being far more complex in practice.

OSI layers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 are very real.

Roughly, e.g.: 1:Fiber, 2:Ethernet, 3:Routing, 4:TCP/IP, and 7:HTTP.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#194

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

tw600040 wrote: post #175

If BTC does catch up, the current inequality of the world will look like an anthill in comparison to the inequality that BTC will create. I can't imagine the world letting that happen..

How is that the coin's fault? Nothing stops anyone from downloading an app, buying some and selling for profit whenever convenient.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#195

Post by tehjoker » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #149

tehjoker wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the heck would bitcoin volatility go down when there's no fixed reason to use it? USD has value despite fiat status because it's required to pay US taxes and oil markets are priced in USD (by force and trade agreement). Bitcoin is totally unteathered from reality (and deflationary which is another story entirely). This means Bitcoin's value is based on completely ephemeral feelings, and the size of its network --…

> both things that can disappear overnight I understand what you mean and it's true in theory, but could never happen in reality. Even if a lot of the world stops believing in Bitcoin and the price tanks, there will always be at least two people interested in trading it with each other. If those two people run one node each, they can make it happen. Bitcoin can no longer disappear overnight. It was true in the beginn…

> Bitcoin can no longer disappear overnight. It was true in the beginning, but the network and mind-share is too big now.

This is what they said about the housing market in 2008. The question isn't whether bitcoin would operate at least 1 transaction, it's whether it is usable as a stable store of value or a large useful network.

> The market seems to value a independent and censorship proof currency differently than you, as those are two of the main features of Bitcoin and Bitcoin is seemingly receiving a lot of high praise, at least at the moment and past 7 years.

I meant morally, not financially. I suspect that multi-nationals are trying to become supranational entities and would be thrilled to be able to become more powerful and free from discipline from individual nations.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#196

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

Kranar wrote: post #12

baby wrote: post #6

Why is everybody betting on bitcoin for payments when there are faster and more stable alternatives in the crypto space? I’m thinking that this is more about a proof of concept to get into the space.

None are as stable as Bitcoin. There are some that are faster right now because no one uses them, but are likely to fail if they get any serious adoption. Ethereum is the only sensible alternative to Bitcoin but Ethereum has major scalability issues and much less infrastructure compared to Bitcoin to alleviate those issues.

What about Monero? It seems like the perfect coin.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#197

Post by ALittleLight » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

hnrodey wrote: post #190

graeme wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN isn’t wrong about everything. It was extremely bearing on Groupon in 2011. It was another thing where true believers would say that skeptics “just don’t get it”, but the HN critics had extremely cogent critiques that went without response. Google “Groupon Stock”, HN was very correct. VERY different from the anti-Dropbox sentiment of the famous Dropbox comment. You also have Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Charlie Mung…

I'm not here to defend Bitcoin nor respond to critiques. Just not what I'm in to. Full disclosure, I have a financial stake in Bitcoin. My observation on all of this is that the most common themes to bear Bitcoin - can all be fixed! People are quite happy to look at the current landscape and proclaim immediate and indefinite failure. Detractors allow no room for growth. Volatility - you could argue that Bitcoin is st…

I've doubted bitcoin for years, and continue to. Part of me realizes I was wrong, in the sense that I would've made money had I only bought and held - but I can't bring myself to buy something that doesn't work.

I can't use it as currency due to transaction fees and times. "Store of value" is basically the same thing as "Ponzi scheme" as far as I can tell. I would've made money, but...

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#198

Post by atweiden » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #75

mrkramer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Satoshi said in 2009: "The existing Visa credit card network processes about 15 million Internet purchases per day worldwide. Bitcoin can already scale much larger than that with existing hardware for a fraction of the cost. It never really hits a scale ceiling. If you're interested, I can go over the ways it would cope with extreme size." "By Moore's Law, we can expect hardware speed to be 10 times faster in 5 years…

Then came the bitcoin core wars. Today bitcoin is a technological dead end, unable to evolve.

> Then came the bitcoin core wars. Today bitcoin is a technological dead end, unable to evolve.

Yet in spite of this, “speculative store of value” remains the only real world use case of cryptocurrency, full stop. No cryptocurrency has risen above speculative store of value absolutely without exception.

N.B. “digital gold” is merely a euphemism for speculative store of value.

“Digital gold” is the Cadillac of all cryptocurrency narratives from a pure practical proven standpoint, much to the chagrin of investors loudly beating the “utility coin” drum to shamelessly drum up demand for other people to invest in their supposed utility-having coin unironically as a speculative store of value.

This is also why all Bitcoin-to-altcoin competition is zero sum, and always will be — because no one uses cryptocurrency, they just virtue signal with it to jockey for position in the sheer Keynesian beauty contest that is cryptocurrency valuation [1].

Every core developer of Bitcoin could drop dead simultaneously, and Bitcoin’s “digital gold” narrative would remain intact. All you need is what Bitcoin is today if your only goal is the safest safe haven asset.

It was wise of the Bitcoin developers to double down on the digital gold narrative due to the inherent realities of the cryptocurrency space which continue to prove themselves out as Bitcoin has risen from $300 to over $50,000 USD. Bitcoin is digital gold, and every altcoin is low-key trying to become that by calling attention to their "utility" which virtually no one has ever made any “use” of.

Which is why Bitcoin remains the #1 coin by market cap, and virtually every other cryptocurrency is down c. 70% from their all-time highs (BTC-denominated ofc, because no other metric counts).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#199

Post by Priem19 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

67868018 wrote: post #179

The number of people commenting who completely misunderstand Bitcoin and crypto is astounding. Bitcoin will never be used directly for payments, it's a value store. Immutable deflationary digital gold. I wrote it off for years too because it was too slow and the fees were too expensive. That was the dream they had, but they couldn't realize it at the base layer. I was still walking around last year believing that's t…

>Also expect a ton of movement to crypto when wealth taxes get implemented to fix economies. They'll use it to hide assets, guaranteed.

Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely. Disregarding all of bitcoin's shortcomings, a financial instrument that brings out the worst in people—greed—won't change the world for the better. https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cryptocultscience.html.

I used time-travel to uncover three secret messages hidden in a popular Bitcoin meme – “This meme is designed to exploit a number of weaknesses in our understanding of money, and to play on our fears. I’m going to show you how it does it, and why.” https://brettscott.substack.com/p/bitcoin-meme-time-travel.

Re: Visa Plans to Enable Bitcoin Payments at 70M Merchants

#200

Post by tablespoon » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

rawtxapp wrote: post #189

tablespoon wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin itself is inherently trustless, that's the whole point of it. You can trust that there will never be more than 21M Bitcoins, you can trust that there will never be a double-spend, you can trust that it will run 24/7, etc. No it isn't. If the Bitcoin devs and miners agree on a change (for instance, to increase the cap), it'll happen, so you have to trust them.

They can't implement those changes uni-laterally, it would cause a hard-fork. In addition to devs and miners, you need users, network nodes and exchanges to agree to it as well. And even if that change were to go through, there will still be people running the old chain (Ethereum Classic is still alive). So those parameters would only change if they improve the network for most stakeholders, otherwise, most people wo…

> They can't implement those changes uni-laterally, it would cause a hard-fork. In addition to devs and miners, you need users, network nodes and exchanges to agree to it as well.

Sure, but the devs do have the "Bitcoin" name, which would leave them well-positioned to market their changes. Bitcoin Classic may stick around, but like Etherium Classic, it may not be very healthy: https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-classic-blockchain-subject...