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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#201

Post by yomly »

elbear wrote: post #160
yomly wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zen meditation seems to be the meditation I have experienced and practised. Both formally and informally. I am unsure this form could lead me to completely fall off the rails, but I also don't think I could sincerely practise it for more than a couple of days (with lots of rest) without just giving up from mental exhaustion. In the same way I wouldn't want to run a marathon tomorrow with no training (even though I ha…

Even if you don't go on retreats and just have a regular daily practice, there could come a point where you experience unusual, unpleasant moments. The explanation might be difficult for you to accept, if you don't accept Buddhist philosophy (if you don't believe in enlightenment, basically). If you are a materialist, you don't believe there is anything else besides matter. You are just your body. Well, at some point…

>Well, at some point during your meditation, you might experience the fact that this world is a construct, a fabrication. But if you don't know how to put it into context, it will feel like nothing, void, nonexistence. This could shock your mind-body system.

Without being arrogant or facetious this feels like a truism to me? After all, our sense of self is an emergent property of unfeeling chemical machines.

I suppose this is where philosophy of the self and ego comes into play which tends to stick people into two camps.

That said, I have yet to feel my mind wander down these paths and experiences during meditation. Although I have experienced something almost similar to psycho activity/wakeful dreaming during yoga shavasana

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#202

Post by platoscubicle »

Trasmatta wrote: post #101
sammalloy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, if 20 minutes of mindfulness a day sets you off into strange psychological territory, then u have a hard time believing that meditation was at fault About ten years ago, I experimented doing 20 minutes in the morning and an additional 20 minutes in the early evening. I did this for about six months, and I may have overdid it, because some very, very strange things began to happen. I stopped meditating afte…

That's a fascinating experience, but also scary, thanks for sharing. It's interesting how meditation can lead you to altered states of consciousness that are in some manners extremely similar to psychedelics. > I've taken much more pleasure and satisfaction from lucid dreaming instead, which is something I still do to this day. I feel like the potential therapeutic benefits of lucid dreaming are incredibly unexplored…

My father reported a similar story induced by LSD. He had an out of body experience where he was up in the air watching himself have a conversation with a friend walking down the beach.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#203

Post by thevardanian »

blobbers wrote: post #113
thevardanian wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's fine. In fact that is itself a valid argument within the Buddhist/Hindu context. I would even argue it's basis of both "religions"; proof through self experience. So again, the point here is that it's important to be knowledgeable about whatever subject matter that you're taking part in, not least because of being respectful, but because that way whatever task is being undertaken can be done "correctly". I…

As someone ignorant, and I mean no disrespect by saying this... this thread reads like an H.P. Lovecraft or Dan Brown novel. Please keep this thread alive, it's fascinating!

Psychedelics man...

They'll mess you up.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#204

Post by jessermeyer »

akudha wrote: post #63
haltingproblem wrote: post #58

Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…

most of them are never the same ever after Can you share what happened to them? Also, you mentioned 3 week retreats. Can you share what changes (good or bad) you experienced during these long retreats?

I encountered this and wrote about it in other meditation thread. Here I've inlined it below.

Meditation is a blade with no hilt.

I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old.

At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the very first time I had ever seen mountains. I think the best description I can manage comes from 'Both Sides Now' by Joni Mitchell.

'I've looked at clouds from both sides now From up and down, and still somehow It's cloud illusions I recall I really don't know clouds at all'

The experience was so disorienting. As if I was seeing the mountains for what they were directly through my senses and not mediated by my knowledge of what mountains were like, linguistically.

It changed my entire life -- weeks later later I lost my job and fell into a 5 year extreme depression / anxiety spell in the attempt to reconcile my adolescent religious upbringing with the continued insight from that experience. Absolutely worthwhile, in hindsight, but it cost me near everything for it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24186942

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#205

Post by colordrops »

Bumkatio wrote: post #199
colordrops wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mindfulness meditation as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh; pieced together practices from dozens of other meditation books. Lots of reading in philosophy. Some limited study of the occult and magick. Ritualistic psytrance parties; LSD and mushrooms.

Somehow this comes across to me like you tried to fuck your reality up. I'm very curious on what was your main goal to achive?

Good question - I didn't have a very clear goal other than to know/experience the ultimate "truth" or "nature", whatever it is, assuming it even exists. I was a very undisciplined young adult at the time.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#206

Post by rafaelvasco »

Meditation doesn't bring psychological problems. If you already have then, it exarcebates them. Bring them more into focus. Don't start meditation practices if you have: Traumas, PTSTD, COD, etc. Meditation is the ultimate introspection practice. It's not a relaxation practive, though it can give that after effect. You will dive deep within yourself, and if you have some "monsters" stored deep, you will face them face to face.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#207

Post by pnathan »

pure_simplicity wrote: post #191
froh wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in contrast this the Christian raised Buddhist scholar Kenneth S Leong would juxtapose his analysis that Jesus' teachings were indeed like Zen teachings and that Jesus' form of prayer was the silent prayer very much equivalent to Eastern meditation. book: kenneth s leong the zen teachings of jesus https://g.co/kgs/79Znnu the silent prayer was also.identified with the "desert fathers" who have shaped much if the found…

Jesus' teachings are best understood in their historical, cultural, and geographical context. The superficial analogies that are drawn in the Zen Teachings of Jesus are an ad hoc theory imposed on rather than derived from the teachings of Jesus. It is similar to how some astrologist writers seek to put an astrological spin on the gospels to siphon off some of the star power of Jesus. It's religious parasitism. Jesus…

There's not a good deal of solid literature on it in English that I've found, but contemplative Christian prayer evolved later on. I want to say circa 500 or so. I think today it's primarily found in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#208

Post by squidlogic »

rafaelvasco wrote: post #206

Meditation doesn't bring psychological problems. If you already have then, it exarcebates them. Bring them more into focus. Don't start meditation practices if you have: Traumas, PTSTD, COD, etc. Meditation is the ultimate introspection practice. It's not a relaxation practive, though it can give that after effect. You will dive deep within yourself, and if you have some "monsters" stored deep, you will face them fac…

From the article:

"Some clinicians believe that meditation can cause psychological problems in people without underlying conditions, and that even forty minutes of meditation per day can pose risks. In 1975, The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease published the case study of a thirty-eight-year-old woman, Mrs. M., who had no history of trauma or psychotic episodes but had begun to experience “altered reality testing and behavior” soon after taking up transcendental meditation. She was meditating for twenty minutes, twice a day. The authors, psychiatrists at the University of California, Davis, wrote that

an altered state of consciousness within days after beginning TM, and the occurrence of the “waking fantasies” shortly thereafter, leave little doubt of some causal relationship between the use of TM and the subsequent psychosis-like experience.

They concluded, “We would expect the occurrence of powerfully compelling fantasies in some portion of normal individuals utilizing depressive procedures of any form,” including meditation."

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#209

Post by Arun2009 »

eternalban wrote: post #196
Arun2009 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. Maybe I am missing something, but Zikr sounds suspiciously like japa ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa ), which is a well accepted form of concentration meditation in all Dharmic traditions. Many teachers will ask neophytes to have a regular japa practice, where you recite a mantra a certain number of times often with the help of a mAlA, first audibly, and…

Zikr is “remembrance of God”. Typical “mantras” are specific names of God, as given by the Pir (elder) to the seeker/neophyte. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhikr So of course, Zikr is a subset of general contemplation and given the universality of human body and psyche, you will find shared elements (such as seating, lowering & raising of head/gaze, and the big one, breathing) in various methodologies of contemplati…

Thanks. That was quite informative.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#210

Post by rafaelvasco »

squidlogic wrote: post #208
rafaelvasco wrote: post #206

Meditation doesn't bring psychological problems. If you already have then, it exarcebates them. Bring them more into focus. Don't start meditation practices if you have: Traumas, PTSTD, COD, etc. Meditation is the ultimate introspection practice. It's not a relaxation practive, though it can give that after effect. You will dive deep within yourself, and if you have some "monsters" stored deep, you will face them fac…

From the article: "Some clinicians believe that meditation can cause psychological problems in people without underlying conditions, and that even forty minutes of meditation per day can pose risks. In 1975, The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease published the case study of a thirty-eight-year-old woman, Mrs. M., who had no history of trauma or psychotic episodes but had begun to experience “altered reality testin…

Most will disagree with me but: Those "waking fantasies" are the result of dilligent meditation. They occur because the brain activates some senses which aren't normally used. But as mainstream Science knows little about them, they're treated as "psychosis" and "fantasies". I can't say about her case specifically, but overall, I can assure you, they're not. But the thing is, the proof can't be shown. It must be experienced. I've been studying these things for years. I'm not a "blind believer". I've experienced them, as millions of others did. Dismissing these things as "fantasies" is naive at best.
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