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Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

chaos.social

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Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#131

Post by bitwize »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #64
nargek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not tolerating xenophobia, racism and bigots in general is a big point for a lot of people. The paradox of tolerance is something that many people should consider.

The problem isn't with the not tolerating, it's with the pushing for others not to tolerate. Freedom requires choice. Our problem is that we've built almost our entire ecosystem on systems where a single actor's intolerance can deny millions of people access to a product. This seemed like a good idea at the time. Apparently what it comes down to is the entire economy needs to be duplicated? Banks, payment providers,…

> Apparently what it comes down to is the entire economy needs to be duplicated? Banks, payment providers, app stores, content delivery networks, web hosting, all the way to operating systems.

What it comes down to is if you're a fascist you won't be allowed to participate in the economy at all to spread your message. Service providers who cater to fascists will be cut off by the banks, and banks that refuse to do their due diligence w.r.t. fash in their customer ranks will be singled out for more in-depth investigation by federal authorities.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#132

Post by bitwize »

soundnote wrote: post #117
nargek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not tolerating xenophobia, racism and bigots in general is a big point for a lot of people. The paradox of tolerance is something that many people should consider.

Most people operate on a caricature version of the paradox, as opposed to Popper's more measured original. Most go with something like "If we tolerate people who aren't 100% our version of kumbaya, we'll end up in tyranny", when Popper's original is restricted to people who have stopped listening, and would make their argument with pistols. Most of the time, the paradox citers are closer to the "not listening" camp t…

If Jan. 6 wasn't proof enough that the "election was stolen" crowd has stopped listening and is willing to make their point with arms, I don't know what would suffice for you.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#133

Post by josephcsible »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #75
syshum wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that argument is that the developers of the application are making the choices not the people that are "building their own service" This goes to the core of the debate, I am in favor of giving users the ability to block anyone they want, even the ability to subscribe to and distribute block lists However it is step to far to hardcode or build in unchangeable block lists into the very foundation of th…

When I build something, I alone get to decide what my labor enables and what it does not. If you disagree with my choices, you’re free to use a tool built by someone whose values better align with yours.

Some authors of Fediverse clients banned certain servers not because they wanted to, but because they were told their client would be banned from app stores if they didn't.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#134

Post by josephcsible »

3np wrote: post #30
PurpleFoxy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OPs point is the app devs are trying to stop you picking your own server by blocking you from logging in to unapproved servers via the app. Instances blocking each other is perfectly understandable. This is like if chrome started blocking websites google disapproves of.

You're right - but my argument is equally applicable to Mastodon apps as to instances or Google's app store - you can always choose a different app! If they start using their own proprietary protocol extensions, or closed their instance to other clients, I'd not be as dismissive.

> you can always choose a different app

Not if the app stores have a rule that every such client has to ban the servers that the app store doesn't like.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#135

Post by ycombigator »

sweetheart wrote: post #130
cbradford wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a framework for this that was created over 100 years ago when the same problem happened with railroads. They did they same thing and used their monopoly power to discriminate on who could ship goods by rail. Society said that was wrong and we have the idea of a common carrier that must treat all customers the same. We should declare all app stores to be the same, common carries that may not discriminate. Bot…

Uh, it’s alarming to see someone refer to hate speech as a made up term. Do you think hate speech doesn’t exist?

Hate speech exists as a concept, but it's entirely subjective.

Hate speech can be defined as anything that those in power choose they want to suppress, which means in practice its really just censorship.

Besides which, it's counter productive.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#136

Post by Robotbeat »

cbradford wrote: post #108
skohan wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is one of the great unsolved problems of our time. Apple, Google and Amazon (ok and Azure too I guess) are effectively gatekeepers in terms of what products are allowed to exist online. And during the pandemic this is especially relevant, because for a great many people online life is public life for all intents and purposes. I think almost everyone would agree that a handful of unaccountable corporation…

There is a framework for this that was created over 100 years ago when the same problem happened with railroads. They did they same thing and used their monopoly power to discriminate on who could ship goods by rail. Society said that was wrong and we have the idea of a common carrier that must treat all customers the same. We should declare all app stores to be the same, common carries that may not discriminate. Bot…

I get this concern, but the hate speech bit is not BS. People using platforms to plan insurrections or other violence are not gonna be protected, whether by private companies or the government.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#137

Post by Forbo »

chii wrote: post #121
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll need a legal framework for removing apps in this case.

which i would be very happy to have. As long as it is consistently enforced, and clear as law.

Not even our criminal laws are consistently enforced in the US. I have no faith that this would be any different, and think it would just end up as another tool for systemic oppression.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#138

Post by indymike »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #113
userbinator wrote: post #102

This brave new era of censorship is going to have some really horrible long-term effects that are not so apparent yet to its proponents. The echo-chambers and divisiveness will only get stronger as the edges slowly get squeezed out of the population. "I don't agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

This new era of censorship is a reaction to the now obvious long-term effects of lack of censorship. As with most reactions it will probably swing too far the other way for a while.

Obvious is not a word I'd use here. At least in the US, we're driving a lot of change. Personally, I think a lot of the change is for the better... but censorship... well, Censorship is a disease. Bad ideas are a disease. Trying to cure bad ideas with censorship is kind of like trading cancer for congestive heart failure. Historically, censorship really hasn't led to great outcomes. Bad ideas? Usually good ideas end up winning. It just takes time.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#139

Post by Robotbeat »

vincnetas wrote: post #120
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll need a legal framework for removing apps in this case.

Court order. You cant remove app just because you dont like it. App should violate laws to be removed.

I disagree with that. Private companies should be able to remove apps from their store. However, we should make it more possible for alternative stores to be available. Side-loading (including on iPhones) should be a protected ability, not government officials deciding that Apple can’t ban white supremacists from publishing hate speech apps on Apple’s App Store.

Re: Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

#140

Post by bronson »

jsmith99 wrote: post #34
syshum wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that argument is that the developers of the application are making the choices not the people that are "building their own service" This goes to the core of the debate, I am in favor of giving users the ability to block anyone they want, even the ability to subscribe to and distribute block lists However it is step to far to hardcode or build in unchangeable block lists into the very foundation of th…

Free speech! Free software! But only for people with some programming skills, it seems. (Or at least enough to fork the app on GitHub)

Free furniture! But only for people with woodworking skills it seems.

If you can’t convince an expert to give you what you want, yes, you will need to learn to do it yourself.

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