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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#161
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the article and also with your comment is that we use one word “meditation” , while it is as diverse as any discipline. You do raise very good points otherwise! Buddhist vipassana meditation is a long way from a vast range of yogic type meditations, or Sufi meditations and so forth. This clouds the discussion. As someone who has instructed meditation, our lineage has many safe guards to make it mild…

I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. To wit, your "Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind" underlines that fact. Zikr (remembrance of God's names and attributes) is highly recommended to all Muslims in the Qur'an, officially rated at being higher than prayer. It's not about "mind hacking". It is closer to Zen's "oxherding" purpose. > First off all, not by…

> I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation.

Maybe I am missing something, but Zikr sounds suspiciously like japa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa), which is a well accepted form of concentration meditation in all Dharmic traditions. Many teachers will ask neophytes to have a regular japa practice, where you recite a mantra a certain number of times often with the help of a mAlA, first audibly, and gradually, mentally (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa#Degrees_of_loudness). The idea being that it's easier to focus on a gross object at first to keep your mind steady, and later proceed to more subtle forms. Patanjali himself recommends that Om be chanted and its meaning reflected upon (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...).

The forms of meditations in dharmic traditions is quite bewildering. Patanjali himself recommends to concentrate on anything that you are comfortable with (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...).

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mindfulness meditation as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh; pieced together practices from dozens of other meditation books. Lots of reading in philosophy. Some limited study of the occult and magick. Ritualistic psytrance parties; LSD and mushrooms.

Mixing practices considered harmful even if practices itself are not. Every practice regimen has a bigger system in work so, mixing and matching can create havoc on your body. Adding LSD and mushrooms on top of it is just lighting a big fire and calling storm on you. I'm not against LSD, mushrooms or other practice systems, but never seen any positive outcome from these kinds of experiments. Please, don't do it.

That seems to put a lot of faith in the claims of these systems. I get the sense that now that you can learn this stuff from the internet vs. going to live in a monastery, you get a lot more mix-n-match, even from teachers who are credentialed in a specific tradition.

Michael Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind has lots of stories of people having positive psychedelic therapy, which does require essentially a spiritual guide.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#163

Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…

Not a buddhist, but 100% agree that this article is very lacking in depth in covering the hard fact that 'meditation' is not some singular practice - philosophical/spiritual/psychological context of the practitioner and intent will absolutely have a massive impact on how meditation 'experiences' will be internalized - is the 'insight' I had actually spiritually beneficial, or simply my own attachments/preconceived notions playing tricks on me?

Christian monastics have written tomes about the dangers of spiritual delusion arising in the course of practice (prelest); Without getting into theological debate about core teachings between various religions, I'm quite sure the same is true for any serious spiritual/religious ascetic discipline; The tendency in our culture to divorce the practices from their philosophical underpinnings to make them more 'consumable' by the uninitiated as seems to have happened here is likely a big contributing factor in cases such as this one, and the article completely sidesteps the point by falling victim to the same thinking ..

In a similar vein I also find it quite ironic that the article attempts to reconcile 'meditation' as one monolithic topic that is either 'good' or 'bad' within scientific literature, while at the same time ignoring that 'scientific literature' itself has many studies of differing results from differing psychological treatment modalities, many of which could be viewed as 'meditative' in some casual sense (e.g. CBT, so called 'mindfulness meditation', schema therapy, etc)

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zen practitioner and trainer here. Proper meditation is a very powerful journey inside and has the power to uncover a lot of trauma or bad experiences masked or buried by other coping mechanisms. It can be said that purification is the process of uncovering these traumas and/or problems and solving them definitively, removing all secondary effects in the process, hence making person more free. As OP said, the mechani…

>> Coming to your point, these breaks are caused by being faced with these traumas unprepared or without someone to support you. Unfortunately that can't be proved. When reading the article I got the impression the woman might have unearthed such a thing. Maybe she had a hidden shame. Someone even asked about it, but she never told what it was. Maybe there wasn't anything to work through and meditation can cause prob…

There are two possible causes.

The first is hidden trauma.

The second is something that comes strings attached. You have to accept the Buddhist conceptual framework which says that the entire world is a fabrication.

During meditation you can experience this and, if you don't accept that you are more than just matter, then experiencing the fact that your body is empty of existence will mean that you are empty of existence. Which will be very frightening, as you can imagine.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zen practitioner and trainer here. Proper meditation is a very powerful journey inside and has the power to uncover a lot of trauma or bad experiences masked or buried by other coping mechanisms. It can be said that purification is the process of uncovering these traumas and/or problems and solving them definitively, removing all secondary effects in the process, hence making person more free. As OP said, the mechani…

Perhaps I'm not being direct enough. In the past, through various practices and substances I experienced what felt like a complete erasure of all rules - if something could be thought, it could be made real. This spun out of control and felt extremely dangerous to me, and scared me to the point of emotional paralysis and near psychosis for months. It was not past trauma that frightened me but a complete unveiling of…

If you're looking to put those experiences into a conceptual framework, I recommend Andrew Holecek's book Dreams of Light. Just be prepared to entertain the possibility that the "woo" is an accurate view of reality.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#166
Thread is a bit old by now - I've also been in the area of meditation and Eastern spiritual teachings and techniques for a long time. Wholehearted agreement on the various comments that this is powerful stuff, you're learning to consciously intervene in very intimate aspects of your functioning that are normally left to happen more or less on their own (e.g thinking, breathing, and engaging or disengaging your attention). So there is definitely potential for doing it wrong and making a mess of yourself.

One thing I think has not been mentioned here, is that contemporary culture is very mind-centered. We identify much more strongly with our thoughts than with our feelings, and when feelings are emphasized, it's usually negative ones (see the current culture of outrage). We feel that we are what we think, and tend to work through things by thinking them through. Heart to heart connection is still a thing, always will be because it's part of being human, but it's not very much emphasized in our cultural environment.

So you end up with people taking up forceful, advanced spiritual techniques, and doing it it all from the mind, out of plain conviction and volition. And unless you happen to find very good guidance, that's not altogether unlikely to screw you up.

Every spiritual tradition that I've looked at has a strong component of heart connection at its center, but it's not always very explicit. Theravada Buddhism has metta as an practice, but it's done separately at certain times, rather than emphasizing that it's the prerequisite for the shamatha/vipassana stuff to actually help you rather than mess you up. A strong, secure heart connection is what makes your meditation go in the direction of wholeness rather than dissociation. All sorts of spiritual traditions are connected to religions that teach you to love your God or your Guru or your favorite enlightened being, or all sentient beings, and they usually have some form of formal worship too, e.g puja. It's not the object of worship that makes the difference, or the details of the ceremony - it's what the reverential, loving attitude does to you. Without love as the lubricant, spiritual practice is not only often ineffective, it's downright dangerous.

"When a person who wants Truth more than life falls in love with what is, it happens." - Bart Marshall, on spiritual enlightenement. Note the "love" part is just as important as the "truth" part.

One problem nowadays with all the cultural crossing and mixing, is that we get taught Eastern practices, and either the reverential aspect is lost in the process of Westernization, or even more insidiously, it gets transmitted but doesn't work for us. You're a grown up adult joining a spiritual community, and you might learn that it's customary to bow down to a statue, or make an elaborate puja once or twice a month, you go through the motions, even enjoy it, enjoy the connection with fellow practitioners, but the deep heart connection is not really there, because you're a jaded adult who didn't grow up with this particular figure you're now bowing to or making offerings to, and anyway why would someone offer food to a stone statue? Get caught in the social aspects of it, and you might not even notice that an important part of your chosen spirituality is just not working.

One thing to take away from my rant: if you're doing any kind of spiritual practice, please please make sure you open your heart before, during and after, in whatever way actually works for you.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zen practitioner and trainer here. Proper meditation is a very powerful journey inside and has the power to uncover a lot of trauma or bad experiences masked or buried by other coping mechanisms. It can be said that purification is the process of uncovering these traumas and/or problems and solving them definitively, removing all secondary effects in the process, hence making person more free. As OP said, the mechani…

>> Coming to your point, these breaks are caused by being faced with these traumas unprepared or without someone to support you. Unfortunately that can't be proved. When reading the article I got the impression the woman might have unearthed such a thing. Maybe she had a hidden shame. Someone even asked about it, but she never told what it was. Maybe there wasn't anything to work through and meditation can cause prob…

Let me set this straight. Your comment is kinda short, but warrants a long answer. First of all, all of my comments are about what I experienced and know as a practitioner and instructor. Please don't take them in the context of the article. There are thousand ways of meditation, and I only know my way with all details. It'd be very irresponsible for me to speculate on something that I do not know.

Hidden trauma is not something like a faceless blob. It's something you remember, you know, however you didn't realize that it created a trauma with you. It's not something burning inside daily, distorting you daily. E.g.: You don't like a certain spice. That's OK, but why? Because somebody added it to your food excessively and your first encounter was very unpleasant. You put the event in the back burner, almost forgot about it, but its effects linger until this day. This is the hidden trauma. This can be something emotional about your past partners, something you botched up, etc. So when you re-remember it, it can be easy to work through or very hard. This difficulty is not related to the size of the event. You can go through events of great distress in a single breath and need to work on the loss of a sentimental item for years. This is where instructor comes in. Keeps you in balance, and guides through it.

The meditation I do doesn't judge anyone. There's no blame. It happened and it left a mark. Why? Doesn't matter. Who's wrong? Doesn't matter. There's a little lesson there. Did you learn it? It can be about you, other party, world, your dog. Doesn't matter. Get that little message, put it into your pocket, leave the emotion behind. That's not easy all the time. This is why instructors/masters are important. This is why the way is important.

Sometimes there's nothing to go through, at least for now. In a good practice, practice itself shouldn't search for problems but to explore what's inside and strengthen oneself. This strength and self-familiarity triggers the discovery of these hidden-traumas or not-so-right state of oneself. This mechanism is not fully understood, but it can be said that with self familiarity and self confidence, the practitioner has more courage to face with the problems which he/she buried to cope, so subconscious mind surfaces them to be dealt with. This is again where guidance and masters play a very important role.

I meditate everyday. I don't uncover the hell inside me every day, but it helps me to reflect, understand what I did right, what I did wrong, what I still carry. It helped me tremendously for transforming from a potato to myself, after years of physical and emotional bullying. It helped me to get rid of my dance phobia, fear of expressing myself and lack of self confidence.

There are many wrong ways to both meditation and psychotherapy. We're very very cautious with our practitioners. Everyone benefited somehow from our ways. Most important thing is, many friends has diverted to different paths and they're free to do so. There's no strings attached. We give the tools and show how to use them correctly. If another set of tools are better for them, we're happy. No hard feelings.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#168

This just in: those prone to lose touch with reality ended up losing touch with reality after engaging in practices that help you lose touch with reality.

That’s... not what this kind of meditation is about. Nor is that necessarily what happened. Shockingly ignorant and dismissive of you.

I read the article.

> For a cumulative ten hours and forty-five minutes, she sat cross-legged on a rug, her spine erect, and tried to focus on her breath.

This practice _will_ cause disassociation at some point, which is precisely what happened when she broke out into psychosis after engaging in the practice for 60+ total hours.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#169
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nihilism" and "reality disconnect" is just a phase in one's progress through insight meditation; it's not the end goal. Meditation does not teach "avoidance" or even "escape" from suffering; on the contrary, it does teach deep engagement and insight. What looks from some perspectives like an 'escape' from suffering or even from life itself is more properly thought of as a reframing of one's perceptions, that gradual…

Interesting. I will check this out when I have a chance. I struggled mightily between something like Nietzsche-and-Buddhism as a kid in my 20s. Had to simply put it down one day, but it’s always been on the back burner. “Mastering the core teachings of Buddha” may be next on my audible... we shall see

If you're willing to entertain another recommendation, in a different narrative style, look into Dreams of Light by Andrew Holecek.

I've mentioned it so many times in this thread that people will think I get a commission :D But I find it incredibly well written by someone with a very clear mind and a knack for wordplay.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#170

Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…

> Feel free to DM me if you want to chat more.

How can people do that if HN doesn't have DMs and you don't have any information listed on your profile?

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