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Why in the world would you own bonds?

bridgewater.com

171–180 of 532 posts

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#171
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing I've learned about professional investors is that no matter what, at the end of the day they're talking their book. That doesn't make them wrong. It's basically just a tautology. If you believe X is a great investment, and you aren't investing in it , that would be a far stranger situation.

Unfortunately, there's a catch. People can say things they don't believe, especially if there is a large amount of money to be made. If I'm holding a large amount of X, and can convince enough other people to buy X that the price rises (hopefully by a lot), I can sell my shares of X for a (large) profit. Pump and dump schemes have been common forever, popularized in the the 2000 movie Boiler Room as well as Wolf of W…

> Unfortunately, there's a catch. People can say things they don't believe, especially if there is a large amount of money to be made. If I'm holding a large amount of X, and can convince enough other people to buy X that the price rises (hopefully by a lot), I can sell my shares of X for a (large) profit. Pump and dump schemes have been common forever, popularized in the the 2000 movie Boiler Room as well as Wolf of Wall St.

Or most recently Gamestop investors.

> At the end of the day, the point is they're trying to sell their book, which is not the same as trying to sell investment X (although they may be very closely related).

My point it is almost never going to be possible to distinguish between good investment advice and self-serving investment advice. Sure, there is some fungibility there for people with different investment needs, like pension funds vs young income earners. But! we should think about what we would think if the reverse was true. If investors were advocating for investments that they weren't personally invested in, then I would be far more skeptical than if they did.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#172
post #102
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing I've learned about professional investors is that no matter what, at the end of the day they're talking their book. That doesn't make them wrong. It's basically just a tautology. If you believe X is a great investment, and you aren't investing in it , that would be a far stranger situation.

It doesn't make them wrong, but nothing can exclude the possibility that an investor believes that they have the ability to convince others via their media platform that X is a great investment without actually believing X is /otherwise/ a great investment. In which case the investment thesis could be purely "access to greater fools"...

Ok, but how should we treat someone's investment advice if they are advising for investments that they are not personally committed to? I find far more reasons for skepticism there. If you see an opportunity to make money for yourself or your clients, and aren't doing it, then... what are you doing?

We should be skeptical of all investment advice. For a specific fact to make us more skeptical of investment advice, we need to consider the alternative where that was not true. I don't see situations where large investors advising people to put money not where their mouth is gives someone more confidence in their advice.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put another way, do you really think you couldn’t get a lot of people in e.g. San Francisco to sign onto a mandate that requires the rich to register outgoing capital flows? Your example is poor; there are 10s of millions of people in California who have been trying to get healthcare reform passed for nearly a decade now and the trend so far has been Obamacare being slowly unwound. It's unclear if the far left/righ…

> there are 10s of millions of people in California who have been trying to get healthcare reform passed I was responding to "who...believes this is a likely scenario?" The argument isn't "this will happen." Just that it shouldn't be beyond the pale of reasonable debate. (Like universal healthcare.) > If the Federal Reserve decided to implement capital controls, I doubt it would happen democratically Capital controls…

>Capital controls are populist. They shift power away from the wealthy to those at the political levers.

No? Capital controls in western history is hardly populist. When I think of populist economic movements, the Bretton Woods System doesn't come to mind. And it's clear China's capital control serve to keep power in the hands of the autocracy; not the other way around.

If the value of the dollar was spiraling to zero it's the Fed, and their clients, that would have the most to lose.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#174
> Real yields of reserve currency sovereign bonds are negative and the lowest ever. Real yields of cash are even worse though not as negative as they were in the 1930-45 and 1915-20 great monetization periods.

This I cannot comprehend. Can someone explain to me how holding cash yields less than holding a bond at negative rates that will return me less cash?

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#175

I discovered awhile ago that so-called "junk bonds" are in fact very rewarding investments that are actually only risky by comparison to other bonds, and not by comparison to other popular asset classes like stocks. Been making $120/year off an $800 bond I bought that has grown in value to $950. Win!

Well you get compensated for increased default risk so certainly.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#176
post #20

The conclusion kind of scares me, especially coming from Dalio. > so they could very well impose prohibitions against capital movements to other assets (e.g., gold, Bitcoin, etc.) and other locations. These tax changes could be more shocking than expected. Who truly believes this is a likely scenario? A number of folks I know are already considering fleeing the US but if this was to pass, that number would skyrocket…

I actually believe something far scarier. I think we're going to see a worldwide disintegration of governments and then sort of a feudal anarchy - basically the Syrian Civil War, but spread across the globe. People will stop taking the government seriously and just go do what they want, with a lot of local bullies and warlords springing up to take their place. The financial picture Dalio paints is the first stage of…

> I think we're going to see a worldwide disintegration of governments and then sort of a feudal anarchy - basically the Syrian Civil War, but spread across the globe.

Your perspective on this seems to be a bit U.S.-centric. No developed country in the world botched its national response to Covid-19 as badly as the United States did. In several countries — like Australia and New Zealand — public trust in government has grown as the public benefited greatly from its government’s world class results in handling the Covid pandemic.

Granted, it does seem that most people these days consider their own government to be at the very least incompetent. But I don’t get the sense countries like Australia have anywhere near the same level of anti-government resentment to contend with. It seems to me a good deal of the blame for the dysfunction of modern America falls on American culture.

> There's the climate crisis, which is the root cause of the migration crisis.

I’d think quality of life factors and economic opportunity would be the primary drivers for migration from the global south to North America and Western Europe. Am I misreading your take on this? It’s a bit of a leap to pin it all onto climate change.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#177
post #174

> Real yields of reserve currency sovereign bonds are negative and the lowest ever. Real yields of cash are even worse though not as negative as they were in the 1930-45 and 1915-20 great monetization periods. This I cannot comprehend. Can someone explain to me how holding cash yields less than holding a bond at negative rates that will return me less cash?

Holding cash costs money too since interest is negative. If you're talking about actually physical cash, you will have to pay for a vault and security to store and move the cash.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#178

What i find particularly scary is the run on the banks scenario the author outlines. this really smashes the idea that bonds are the safe thing to get your money back. I know a lot of bonds have been selling, that's why the fed needs to buy so much every month, to make up for all that selling people are doing. Personally, i'm surprised even more people haven't been selling bonds. With the threat of inflation looming…

where do risk averse investors go these days? On the market I'm invested in to total market index, as well as a global government bond index.

If by total market you mean the total world market (i.e. MSCI ACWI), that's about as risk averse as you can be while still being in equities. Total US market alone is a higher risk choice: https://www.aqr.com/Insights/Perspectives/The-Long-Run-Is-Ly...

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#179
post #143

I read it and I feel like the author does not understand how government debt works. And this makes them not understand bonds as well. But to answer the original question, disregarding any logic of how state debt or bonds work, why would you own bonds? Two possible answers: 1) Because they serve as a deflation hedge. This is interesting for people with lots of money who need some more security 2) Because it is guarant…

I would bet with certainty that Ray Dalio understands how government debt works.

Maybe he does, but his post does not show it. Best reading is that he does it because he is interested in return-on-investment money. In which case his title should be "bonds are not useful for high return-on-investment". But no, he chose "Why in the world would you own bonds?". And then he doesn't even really answer that question, he just goes on about his investment strategies. His result: Don't own bonds. This pretty much explains his "…The economics of investing in bonds (and most financial assets) has become stupid" paragraph.

I already answered why bonds are still valid to be owned by institutions with lots of money and also why big banks still buy them (happily, I should add).

> The world is a) substantially overweighted in bonds (and other financial assets, especially US bonds) at the same time that b) governments (especially the US) are producing enormous amounts more debt and bonds and other debt assets

Yes and no. Why are there so many bonds? Well, lots of countries have policies to not issue money directly to the finance ministry which then gives the money to whatever the government wants to fund, but instead for every spending of the government issue bonds that are sold to banks and put that money on the finance ministries balance sheet. It's an entirely political concept, but it's reality. As such, bonds and state debt are just the money handed out by the state. If they would not hold debt and/or issue bonds, there would be no money for anybody. Period.

>…If bond prices fall significantly that will produce significant losses for holders of them, which could encourage more selling

This leaves out the political dimensions in its entirety. Bond prices will not fall significantly UNLESS the state's resources (technology, work-force, ...) also drop significantly. If that is not the case, the state can just uphold the bond's values.

> …Imagine what would happen if, for any or all of these reasons, the holders of these debt assets wanted to sell them. There is now over $75 trillion of US debt assets of varying maturities.

This is just wrong. I already explained why, in brief, above. I won't shed anymore words on this, except that it is fear-mongering.

> …History and logic show that central banks, when faced with the supply/demand imbalance situation that would lead interest rates to rise to more than is desirable in light of economic circumstances, will print the money to buy bonds and create “yield curve controls” to put a cap on bond yields and will devalue cash. That makes cash terrible to own and great to borrow.

There are more sides to that coin. This is often used to create fear for inflation. Because history has also shown that unless there is hyper-inflation people always love to own cash, regardless of the economic circumstances. And better borrowing conditions should enable economic growth, and over-borrowing should be kept in check anyways (re: financial crisis 2008) so there is no real issue here. And as explained above, unless the resources of a state drop significantly, there is no trigger for hyper-inflation.

All in all, he is just arguing from an invester's perspective, but even then not a very holistic approach.

Re: Why in the world would you own bonds?

#180
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what a “Pump and Dump” is: buy bad investment, talk it up, sell to bigger fools. (Not that this is what’s going on here; think GameStop perhaps.)

Sure, but I’ve no idea how that would apply to this strategy, there are no prescribed purchases, and what could they possibly go short on if nobody buys bonds, the government? Then they’d have bigger problems.

You can do the opposite of pump and dump: there is an investment you want to buy, talk it down, buy it low.
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