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The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

jamesward.com

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Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#61

Post by sandGorgon »

Really the future of the Modern Java Platform is Graal - https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/embed-languages/

Java is not Spring Boot.

For example, this is Python 3.8 compliant runtime on top of Graal - https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/python/

You can also compile your application into a native image (like Go?) - https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/

you can try it in the next 5 mins

1. docker pull ghcr.io/graalvm/graalvm-ce:latest

2. docker run -it ghcr.io/graalvm/graalvm-ce:latest bash

3. gu install python

4. graalpython -m venv myvenv

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#63

Post by eitland »

lmm wrote: post #21

There's some great stuff on the JVM today, but Spring Boot is recapitulating all the problems of J2EE. Everything is extremely "decoupled" to the point that you have no idea where anything comes from or why, and just adding a new dependency to your classpath will radically change the behaviour of your application (oh, you added a dependency on a library that has a transitive dependency on the MongoDB client? Guess th…

It is telling that today modern JavaEE is in many ways a breath of fresh air compared to Spring :-|

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#64

Post by lmm »

avodonosov wrote: post #44
lmm wrote: post #21

There's some great stuff on the JVM today, but Spring Boot is recapitulating all the problems of J2EE. Everything is extremely "decoupled" to the point that you have no idea where anything comes from or why, and just adding a new dependency to your classpath will radically change the behaviour of your application (oh, you added a dependency on a library that has a transitive dependency on the MongoDB client? Guess th…

That`s not spring boot, that`s whole spring (and google guice, etc), starting from the idiotic XML for bean wiring, to equally idiotic anntations, and finally, after 15 or how many years, they realized that plain java can be used for object creation. What a discovery! Still, they introduced @Configuration bullshit, etc. (There are cases when such features may be useful, e. g. systems that are extended by 3rd party pl…

I'm no fan of regular Spring, but it offers some legitimate value and has relatively comprehensible behaviour. It doesn't break grep: when a class is instantiated by Spring you can find a reference to that class, and most IDEs can also follow those references. Adding a new dependency doesn't change its behaviour.

Spring Boot is real a step change in comprehensibility, in the wrong direction. It's on a similar level to adding COME FROM to the language. You're not wrong to complain about Spring/Guice in general, but implying that they're remotely comparable to Spring Boot is thoroughly misleading. It's not the same thing at all.

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#65

Post by beachy »

avodonosov wrote: post #44
lmm wrote: post #21

There's some great stuff on the JVM today, but Spring Boot is recapitulating all the problems of J2EE. Everything is extremely "decoupled" to the point that you have no idea where anything comes from or why, and just adding a new dependency to your classpath will radically change the behaviour of your application (oh, you added a dependency on a library that has a transitive dependency on the MongoDB client? Guess th…

That`s not spring boot, that`s whole spring (and google guice, etc), starting from the idiotic XML for bean wiring, to equally idiotic anntations, and finally, after 15 or how many years, they realized that plain java can be used for object creation. What a discovery! Still, they introduced @Configuration bullshit, etc. (There are cases when such features may be useful, e. g. systems that are extended by 3rd party pl…

Was "boolshit" a typo or is it a magnificent new pejorative?

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#66

Post by hans0l074 »

When I use developer tooling in other platforms I’m usually disappointed. I shouldn’t need some special native library installed on my system so I can install a dependency. It shouldn’t take me hours to get my local developer toolchain set up.

I found this comment odd - it does take some time to get a modern Java dev env up and running from scratch. For e.g. you have to at least download/install gradle or maven after the JDK. And then the author goes onto to talk about the Testcontainers project for which it appears you need to set up Docker. And so on. Wonder if I missed the meaning there.

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#67

Post by lmm »

sz4kerto wrote: post #54
lmm wrote: post #21

There's some great stuff on the JVM today, but Spring Boot is recapitulating all the problems of J2EE. Everything is extremely "decoupled" to the point that you have no idea where anything comes from or why, and just adding a new dependency to your classpath will radically change the behaviour of your application (oh, you added a dependency on a library that has a transitive dependency on the MongoDB client? Guess th…

There's a very good reason why Spring is used so widely. Complex enterprise apps are often complex because the use case and the environment is complex. E.g.: - integration testing and unit testing is required - transparently pluggable backends for message queues so that locally you can use SQLite as your pub/sub storage but in production it's Google P/S - standardized health check endpoints for all your apps ... The…

Spring proper is (relatively) fine; you can make applications with it that are more-or-less maintainable. Spring Boot is very different. It's a write-only framework, and while businesses may have enthusiastically adopted it, it's new enough that they haven't (yet) had to pay the maintenance costs and realise how bad they are.

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#68

Post by sz4kerto »

strictfp wrote: post #58
sz4kerto wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very good reason why Spring is used so widely. Complex enterprise apps are often complex because the use case and the environment is complex. E.g.: - integration testing and unit testing is required - transparently pluggable backends for message queues so that locally you can use SQLite as your pub/sub storage but in production it's Google P/S - standardized health check endpoints for all your apps ... The…

Enterprise apps are complex because they don't focus on solving the business problem, they focus on the tools and frameworks. Spring is not the cure, it's the disease.

This is absolutely not the case. Enterprise app developers (etc.) are not stupid. The domain and the business problem are often extremely complex and hard to understand.

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#69

Post by jcelerier »

avodonosov wrote: post #44
lmm wrote: post #21

There's some great stuff on the JVM today, but Spring Boot is recapitulating all the problems of J2EE. Everything is extremely "decoupled" to the point that you have no idea where anything comes from or why, and just adding a new dependency to your classpath will radically change the behaviour of your application (oh, you added a dependency on a library that has a transitive dependency on the MongoDB client? Guess th…

That`s not spring boot, that`s whole spring (and google guice, etc), starting from the idiotic XML for bean wiring, to equally idiotic anntations, and finally, after 15 or how many years, they realized that plain java can be used for object creation. What a discovery! Still, they introduced @Configuration bullshit, etc. (There are cases when such features may be useful, e. g. systems that are extended by 3rd party pl…

> e. g. systems that are extended by 3rd party plugins,

That's most non-toy desktop software

Re: The Modern Java Platform – 2021 Edition

#70

Post by matsemann »

Pair programming with colleagues I often get frustrated by them wasting time doing things a hard way. Like using print statements instead of the debugger, or setting a breakpoint but then have to skip it twenty times to get to the correct case (instead of a conditional bp), or restarting the whole server instead of hot reloading the changed class in a second.

So I think many don't know how smooth java can be if used correctly. But that also makes me think if there are low hanging fruit / obvious stuff I also don't know that could be a boost to my productivity?

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