Right to Repair Gaining Momentum • Hacker News Board

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#111

Post by fomine3 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #96

bzzzt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering: if there was a 'right to repair' on computers in the 60's, would Intel have made an integrated microprocessor? I mean: you can't just fix a dead register by replacing it anymore... Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements.

>"electronics have become more reliable" Is that actually true? I have a 20 year old TV and a projector that still work, and I would be very surprised if my current one will last that long.

I expect simple LCD + LED lasts longer than average CRT.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#112

Post by rasz » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

bullosB wrote: post #64

freedom42 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is even if people don't wanna repair themselves they might wanna change a battery. Or get something minor done cheaply by a 3rd party. But Apple goes so far out of the way to kill third party repair. They even put special screws in their machines to screw you. Edit: The EU pushed right to repair, right? Now see what Apple did to screw France [1]. Their latest and greatest devices somehow have a repairabilit…

The score is based on 5 categories: 1.documentation available 2.ease of repair 3.availability of spare parts 4.price or spare parts 5.category specific to the product (not the same for a washing machine or a computer). Each of them give you a score out of 20, and the total is divided by 10. So you can have 0 on the 2., making the phone hard to repair, but still having a 8/10 score. In the end its similar to Booking r…

But apple:

1.doesnt provide any repair documentation at all

2.even Apple themselves dont repair in house, and instead replace devices.

3.doesnt offer spare part at all _unless_ you sign up to their "share all of your clients personal data and your accounting books with us" program, and even then its only batteries and screens at massive margins (more than whole working used device).

4.see above

5.no idea what goes there

So we end up at 4 x 0.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#113

Post by rasz » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

simias wrote: post #4

I definitely think it's a good idea. The other week my girlfriend's Western Digital external drive stopped working, I wanted to open it to figure out if it was the drive itself or the sata-to-USB logic. Took me 20 minutes to open the case, and I damaged it significantly in the process. Turns out that it was only the USB adapter that was out of order, I bought a cheap-o USB 3 case and now it works again. Yesterday I w…

Lucky, Seagate external drives integrate USB bridge on hdd pcb, there is no sata, you would have to desolder bga chip and tap pcb traces.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#114

Post by ehnto » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 6:22 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #78

ehnto wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pragmatism and the application of it is an art all of it's own. A pragmatist may change their own clutch, but get a professional to do their wiring. It's about addressing the situation and making a reasonable choice.

Oh, fully agreed! And I think Pirsig would have agreed, too. Regardless, you need some level of understanding to make the call. A particularly funny anecdote from the book, if you read it, is when he decides some fix is too delicate for him and takes his motorcycle to a repair shop. Right from the start he gets a bad vibe -- the mechanics are all kids listening to loud music and seemingly not paying attention to what…

Absolutely, I have a car that sits in a specialist category these days, and there is exactly one shop I'll take it to in this city because they're experienced in all the idiosyncrasies of the platform. But I only know that because of how much time I've spent on the car myself.

My friend who has a similar car but doesn't work on it got fleeced for two years at his chosen shop, they didn't even do some of the work they billed for. Now we've got him at a specialist and it's been cheaper and better quality work.

It's not that my friend is dumb either, as with John, he was making what seemed like the smart choice with the knowledge he had, given the level of effort he was willing to put into learning about his car. He has other priorities, so perhaps the pragmatic choice for him given they're a niche car, would have been getting a recommendation from the car community about where to go.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#115

Post by pbasista » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

dbg31415 wrote: post #104

pbasista wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I agree. But no one asks for that. It is my understanding that the "right to repair" initiative, as presented by Louis Rossmann, only asks that the people who are willing to do the repair themselves are able to get the replacement parts, the tools (e.g. custom screwdrivers, flash programmers ...) and the expertise (e.g. sc…

> Consider the availability of schematics for MacBooks, for example. They are not available officially. But it is possible to get them via shady channels. The operation of such channels is risky because it is often illegal. But it is nevertheless being done because there is a large demand for it. If you buy a BMW, you drive all around town and get told by auto places, "Hey I don't work on BMWs." You end up taking it…

> they have great service

Apple typically does not perform component-level repairs. They tend to replace larger parts like motherboards, display assemblies or cases piece for piece, which is cheap and quick for them and expensive for the customer. And it also typically means that the customer will lose their data. I am not sure on what basis can such a service be considered "great".

On top of that, Louis Rossmann has published multiple videos showing the sheer incompetence of Apple's official Genius Bar service. For example:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns (Apple's suggested "solution" to a bent pin issue was to replace the logic board and the top case)

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RlVC3xwJN0 (Apple is unable to resolve an issue with the SSD, bends a display cable pin in the process and tells the customer that there might be a motherboard issue)

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxmFucVy7M (Apple spends $ 10,000 while troubleshooting an "issue" of backlight being turned all the way down)

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#116

Post by bzzzt » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

ls65536 wrote: post #92

simion314 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements. Your argument might be fair but is ignoring the 99% of the complaints: - DRM - no schematics - forbidding selling of spare parts - not sharing repair tools Maybe we should put an Apple exception so we don't trigger the fanboys then we get the right the repair…

No need to imagine...This sort of scenario already happened to someone I know with their Apple device: They had just wiped their iPhone in an attempt to clean it up and restore the software to factory condition, and afterwards it required an OS software update for some reason (okay, sure), so this was done. After this update, some kind of "activation" was required (why?) before the device was usable at all for anythi…

While I agree a company like Apple should do better in reporting errors like these I don't share your conclusion that's purely out of malice (and driven by profit) instead of ordinary incompetency (or lack of time, bad management etc). That's not meant in defense of Apple, but because I'm very anti-jumping to conclusions.

The iCloud activation lock is a theft prevention option that locks the phone to an iCloud account and will required activation after a factory reset. If you don't want to deal with Apple, don't set that option. If everyone in physical possession could override that it wouldn't be much of a lock at all...

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#117

Post by bzzzt » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

setr wrote: post #40

bzzzt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering: if there was a 'right to repair' on computers in the 60's, would Intel have made an integrated microprocessor? I mean: you can't just fix a dead register by replacing it anymore... Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements.

Right to repair doesn’t mean that everything must be repairable; it means that manufacturers can’t block you from installing a replacement part (eg by requiring a key from CORP) That is, if you could have repaired it, YOU could have repaired it

If those manufacturers want to control the quality you're getting from your appliance you're giving them no other option than to integratie everything with superglue and make all repairs impossible...

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#118

Post by bzzzt » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

C19is20 wrote: post #33

bzzzt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse, they cause unsatisfied customers who don't want their next phone to be an Apple.

I bought some OEM stuff for my car. I bet Ford are fuming that I've devalued their product. If someone replaced a camera and weren't happy with it, at least they could try another.

I bet they are when you're passing it on as a 'genuine' Ford part when you're selling the car.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#119

Post by dbg31415 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

pbasista wrote: post #115

dbg31415 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider the availability of schematics for MacBooks, for example. They are not available officially. But it is possible to get them via shady channels. The operation of such channels is risky because it is often illegal. But it is nevertheless being done because there is a large demand for it. If you buy a BMW, you drive all around town and get told by auto places, "Hey I don't work on BMWs." You end up taking it…

> they have great service Apple typically does not perform component-level repairs. They tend to replace larger parts like motherboards, display assemblies or cases piece for piece, which is cheap and quick for them and expensive for the customer. And it also typically means that the customer will lose their data. I am not sure on what basis can such a service be considered "great". On top of that, Louis Rossmann has…

> And it also typically means that the customer will lose their data.

If they don’t back up, that’s on the customer.

Look, I’ve never had a bad go with Apple. Other than once I walked in and tried to buy 25 laptops for a startup and they wouldn’t sell me that many without an appointment.

I’ve had great experiences with Apple Care where they replaced a 3 year-old laptop with a brand new one because a part failed.

Are there bound to be people who had bad experiences, sure. But like… if they are all the sort of people who don’t backup their data… kind of hard to take that seriously. You have to be a realist.

In any event, if you think the ability to repair is so important then you should only buy products that you know are easy to repair. I don’t necessarily care about this, and I don’t really want a phone with a battery flap to make it easier to remove, or that isn’t water proof. I vote with my wallet, and you should too. And that said, you shouldn’t try and circumvent my ability to vote on with my wallet and I shouldn’t try and circumvent your ability to vote with your wallet. Apple has done ok by me, rather they keep doing what they are doing - following the market and building the best quality devices (in my opinion) out there.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#120

Post by bzzzt » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #107

nomel wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the used market would be flooded with "iPhones" filled with non-genuine parts. Non genuine parts often don't interact well with things like firmware updates.

So by this logic all automobiles should only be serviced by the manufacturer. Somehow I think we'd manage to figure something out for a product that is orders of magnitude less dangerous than an automobile.

That's already the case for the more complicated parts. Also, at least here in the EU, if you want factory warranty you have to follow the dealer schedule and do the necessary replacements.