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Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

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Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#41

Post by thevardanian »

asymptosis wrote: post #22
kumarvvr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really curious. Can you give more details? Vamachara stuff is forbidden and can lead to extremely dangerous reverse effects.

It might be forbidden within the context of certain religious paths/orders, but it's not forbidden for random people on the internet to experiment with whatever exercises they come across. I think the site where I got it doesn't exist any more. I think I have a copy in my own archives somewhere. The basic gist of the practices was a combination of various asanas, mantras, pranayama and visualisation.

It's not about it being religious, but about it being dangerous, or in some ways a hinderance/harmful to the self.

Kind of like how self harm is forbidden. Vamamarga is psychological self harm, in a sense. Aghoris then take that same principle to the next level.

The problem is people fetishize, or in other ways make arguments and ideas about Indian origin things within the context of religion. That has in my opinion done far more harm in understanding the philosophical approaches of Dharma than any other misconception, including translation errors.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#42

Post by jwilber »

A therapist told me that, for those who suffer from ocd, meditation can do more harm than help. Especially for those who suffer from more rumination-based variants (ie “pure-ocd”).

I’ve had mixed results - my personal observation is to treat it like a psychedelic trip: only go in when you’re in a good mental state.

The odd thing is the typical therapy for ocd is cbt (cognitive behavioral therapy), which, despite intersecting quite a bit with meditation, is very effective.

Yoga always feels beneficial.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#43

Post by astrange »

1ark wrote: post #9
desireco42 wrote: post #4

I would say that meditation is fine, cults are bad. It isn't easy to sit and be still, everyone who tried will tell you, you will find any kind of excuse to not do it. However if you endure it and spend some time meditating, it will indeed bring perspective and clarity in your mind. These kinds of retreats are stupid... For number of reasons. Also 'apps for meditation' are extra stupid, except maybe Oak because it is…

> Also 'apps for meditation' are extra stupid The irony of these apps coming out a few years ago. And the popularity of them. I guess it becomes more of a routine and escape from reality, rather than mindfulness and meditation.

The one I use comes with a biofeedback headband, so there is a real use for it. The rest just play sounds which seems fine.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#44

Post by hnick »

mangamadaiyan wrote: post #31
kumarvvr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really curious. Can you give more details? Vamachara stuff is forbidden and can lead to extremely dangerous reverse effects.

Who forbids it?

Interesting piece on it here. I wasn't aware of these terms.

Basically, by definition it is about breaching Hindu societal taboos, unless I am vastly misunderstanding this brief summary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_...

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#45

Post by zozbot234 »

sn41 wrote: post #30
rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

I tried Stoicism earnestly for some time, reading Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus. What I found was actually a "nonchalance" enveloping me, where I lost any willpower or determination or urgency to do anything. It sure felt good. But activities and deadlines were slipping. I had to literally talk myself back into caring. I wonder if anyone else had similar experiences. Whenever I raise this point, some one says I did n…

AIUI there's nothing wrong from a Stoic perspective with "talking yourself into caring" about stuff, especially as it seems you were just getting into the ideas. Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus did it a lot, and it seems to have worked well for them.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#46

Post by asymptosis »

asymptosis wrote: post #22
kumarvvr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really curious. Can you give more details? Vamachara stuff is forbidden and can lead to extremely dangerous reverse effects.

It might be forbidden within the context of certain religious paths/orders, but it's not forbidden for random people on the internet to experiment with whatever exercises they come across. I think the site where I got it doesn't exist any more. I think I have a copy in my own archives somewhere. The basic gist of the practices was a combination of various asanas, mantras, pranayama and visualisation.

This was it: https://web.archive.org/web/20040612155253/http://www.kamaka...

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#47

Post by seigando »

seigando wrote: post #39

I have significant experience with meditation, and I tend to agree with Lieberman in this article. Trying to pin Megan's condition on meditation alone is sort of like blaming your mother for lifting up the carpet to find that's where you hid the mess.

Also of note in this article is that the hospital drugged her until she appeared cheerful....and then released her. I think this article actually says more about the state of mental health care in this country than problems with meditation. That's not to say there aren't any, but it doesn't seem like this article summarizes it very well, so I will: Insufficient mental frameworks and support structures coupled with deep meditative experiences can lead people to harm themselves. That's pretty much the main conclusion I've received from here, but surprise, lots of people harm themselves without meditation too.

Maybe this is part of America waking up to how messed up it is underneath it all.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#48

Post by samcodes »

Meditation is a pretty broad term encompassing many different activities/intentions (though they all look pretty similar from the outside). In the studies I’ve read on the adverse effects of meditation, the style has a major influence. Due to historical accidents, vipassana is a common style in the West - I find this mind blowing, since it is probably the most likely to cause adverse effects.

As a long time meditator, my experience with vipassana is that it is the hardcore path, for those willing to risk crashing and burning to get to enlightenment faster. Techniques like mettā, tonglen, or dzogchen seem to be ~5-10x less likely to be associated with a psychotic event - which at that point, seems like it could just be about prior history [1]. It's worth mentioning that Britton, the academic meditation critic in the article is a co-author of this paper.

[1] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#49

Post by viceroyalbean »

sn41 wrote: post #30
rarefied_tomato wrote: post #11

This article discusses how transcendental meditation has induced nihilism and reality disconnect upon some of its vulnerable practitioners. In my ears, this lends cautionary support for Nietzsche's criticism of stoics and Buddhists. I'm not very knowledgeable here, but roughly his argument is that the avoidance of life's suffering is nothing but an escape from life itself. If one engages with the world, one must deal…

I tried Stoicism earnestly for some time, reading Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus. What I found was actually a "nonchalance" enveloping me, where I lost any willpower or determination or urgency to do anything. It sure felt good. But activities and deadlines were slipping. I had to literally talk myself back into caring. I wonder if anyone else had similar experiences. Whenever I raise this point, some one says I did n…

I don't want to respond with "you were doing it wrong" since I don't know enough about what you did/thought to evaluate that, but my view of Stoicism is that the "nonchalance" should be applied to things that are outside of our control, while we should do everything we can to be virtuous with the things that are inside of our control. E.g If it's raining we shouldn't be tearing our hair out in panic and cursing the weather, but rather deal with it in the ways we can by taking an umbrella with us. I do agree that some Stoic practices (such as the 'view from above') could bring about an attitude of "eh, does it even matter?"

I think it's possible to gain a large deal of motivation and drive from the concepts of virtues and doing everything we can to live virtuously and improve the world accordingly.

Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation

#50

Post by ggm »

Everyone I know who did an intensive meditation retreat was warned up-front. It isn't just "sign here and pay" for reputable agencies.

I am also told, there is a strict post-retreat protocol regarding re-engagement in the wider world. People are amazingly vulnerable at this time. The facilitating staff are told to be strictly hands-off, and avoid situations of risk for either of them. (client, or helper)

I think that I'm just saying, its like the go-kart track down the road. the one which has a terms-and-conditions board a mile long: its a better choice than the one which doesn't seem to care about safety, even if its a bit off-putting at first.

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