Live data from Hacker News

Justice at Spotify

unionofmusicians.org

381–390 of 405 posts

Re: Justice at Spotify

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Music rights are split into two traditionally, the songwriting copyright and the mechanical reproduction right. Previous to the internet, media sales mostly went to the labels who held hte mechanical rights and songwriting copyright was earned directly to the artist. So if you bought a CD the label gets paid, if you play a song on the radio an artist gets paid. The music industry lawyers were incredibly smart when th…

Can you, or someone, share a source for the first paragraph? It completely changes my perception of music royalties and I'd like to be sure before I repeat it :)

You want to read up on music publishing as well as royalties[1][2]. It's important to understand both and it's hard to discuss one without the other. But basically if you understand the these two subject you will understand to a very large degree how the music business works. In the record label model of the music business a label advances you money to pay for your recording and advances you money to pay for your music's promotion(videos, tour support etc.) Before an artists sees a single cent of money from album sales they need to pay the label back all of the money the label advanced them. These advances are paid back via mechanical royalties. It is not until a label recoups every cent from the artist that the artist begins collecting royalties. This is how a lot of artists can sell a bunch of records and yet end up in debt to the record label. S

[1] https://soundcharts.com/blog/how-the-music-publishing-works

[2] https://soundcharts.com/blog/music-royalties

Re: Justice at Spotify

#382
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it would be that hard to show a small histogram which had your plays bucketed across different levels of commitment, engagement or some similar metric. Or instead of doing it that way, you'd bucket the users, so say "for song X, you had 30k unique users listen to it in the royalty time period, and here's a histogram of how engaged they were, with the left side being a small number of users who listened…

> In any case, obviously the conversation is DOA if you start it from a foundational assumption that "a play is a play" That's not my foundational assumption, but I've also not heard a compelling argument that one play / minute streamed should be inherently more valuable than another play / minute streamed. It's also not clear how this value would be calculated, because I also don't think it's clear that proportion o…

> I've also not heard a compelling argument that one play / minute streamed should be inherently more valuable than another play / minute streamed.

Here's a compelling irrefutable argument.

Let's start the discussion from a couple of scenarios. These scenarios are not the definitive and complete set of use-cases, but are enough to prove a point.

Scenario 1: User manually searches for a song and clicks play. Again the following day. Again and again for a couple of weeks/months. The user forgets about the song after that period.

Scenario 2: User creates a playlist and clicks play. Then uses that same playlist again, and again and again for years. Alterantive scenario: users searches for a published album/compilation and plays that playlist again and again for years.

Scenario 3: Streaming service generates a new generic infinite playlist every day, based on a biased algorithm that upvotes some artists and downvotes some other artists. E.g. Playlist called - Discover Daily/Weekly.

Scenario 4. Streaming service generates a new generic infinite playlist every day, but personalized to the users taste and interests, again based on a biased algorithm that upvotes some artists and downvotes some other artists. E.g. Playlist called - Recommended for you today.

Scenario 5. User hits random play and a truly random algorithm decides what will be played next, no matter of musical style, language, culture or any other aspect. Truly random, no biases whatsoever.

So I will argue why not all streams are equal or should not be treated equal.

The difference is the specificity of intent. Whether the user wished to listen to some specific song, or if the user was force-fed some song. For the initial discussion I am assuming force-feeding, later I will discuss alternative scenarios (clicking skip).

In scenario 1 and 2 there is intent from the user what should be streamed, and this means that the user is interested in the music to be streamed. It can not be refuted that the authors of that specific song should be paid for the stream.

In scenario 3 and 4, the user just wishes to have something making noise, not anything specific, but not random. This is fine, if the user is satisfied, but the problem is all algorithms have biases. If the algorithm favors the most popular authors, and the user could be satisfied with anything in the same style and tempo without preferences, than the streaming service is not fair to the authors who are less popular and never gives them a standing chance to compete. This creates a boosting effect so that the most popular become force-fed to the audience involuntarily and they become even more popular. This is a well-known side-effect in all platforms that use popularity as ranking or rating metric. So here, not all streams can be considered equal, since some had higher probability to be present in the playlist due to inherent algorithm biases.

Scenario 5 is the only scenario where the user is force-fed music, but in a manner that is irrefutably unbiased and irrefutably fair to all authors and songs. In such a scenario all get a chance and all such streams are equal. Unfortunately, users that would prefer such a scenario do not exist. Nobody would endure the torture of a truly random playlist for more than 3 songs.

So we have use cases where the users know what they want, and use-cases where the users don't know what they want, but know what they don't want and the streaming service tries to guess what it is that they want next, without truly knowing.

How do the streaming services know what a user does not want? By measuring the % of the stream that went through. If the user managed to suffer only So they try to guess what to play next. With a biased recommender algorithm that tries to recommend what would be a good fit to play next, and as I said the algorithm might favor some musicians over others.

This is a hard problem and is always discussed at research conferences, both by researchers from the streaming services, and by independent researchers. The topics of bias, randomness, satisfaction are always present. Some authors are even using personality traits to discover the type of music that should be streamed next, which is a very very deep breach in user privacy. I imagine that some services might consider eaves dropping on their customers to evaluate if there is true interest and appreciation of the served content - whether the customer is eating, dancing, smiling, chatting, ..., having sex, during the stream. To gather as much data as possible on what is the context, to offer a better aligned next song (if you are a paying customer) of better aligned ads (if you are a non-paying customer).

This is why all streams must not be treated equal, and the streaming services must find a way to be as fair as possible towards musicians (having in mind that no-one likes a random playlist).

As this is a hard problem, I suspect that more and more services will divert their research towards automatically generated music, so nobody will care if the algorigths are fair and if the authors are paid. Music is most susceptible to this, as it is easy to generate music that sounds good enough to a fairly large audience without realizing it is all auto-generated.

Advertisers pay for a radio and tv service, not users, right?

Re: Justice at Spotify

#383

Does anyone know if this so-called union is an actual union? As in, do they collect dues, do they represent a substantial % of artists, and do its members already collectively bargain with Spotify and similar publishers? If Spotify says no, do these demands have any teeth?

Well they ripped off the (copyrighted) Mr. Yuck logo owned by the UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh.

Stealing from children to complain about theft.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#384
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the world would be a better place. Really? Sounds pretty terrible to me. Few books. Few videogames. No movies. No TV shows. Most of the internet obliterated. Any content that is created is copied and regurgitated so much you'd be hard pressed find out who actually created it. I personally like consuming entertainment. I work with the creative side of my brain all day long, and being able to go home and turn it off…

You are also discounting the cost to society for all the works of art that are created due to copyright. Copyright criminalizes remix culture and leads to evils like Youtube arbitrarily giving strikes because 5 seconds of a taylor swift song was in the background, suppression of criticism, and depriving the poor from access to modern culture.

> works of art that are created due to copyright.

aren't*

Re: Justice at Spotify

#385
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a look at their most recent financial statement we can do some quick calculations. (All figures in million euros) Revenue Cost of Revenue Profit Premium : 7135 5126 2009 Free (ads): 745 739 6 Overall : 7880 5865 2015 Now currently the claim is that they are paying out $0.0038 per stream and we want to raise that to $0.01 which would be a 2.63 multiple. For spotify free that would mean that they just have to in…

This is good analysis. Small quibble with the last part - we don't know how much the price charged to consumers needs to increase to be able to afford $0.01 a stream. Any increase in price will see a drop in subscribers, dropping revenue. An increase in price could reduce revenue, making it harder to afford the increased payout.

On the other hand, when you think about take-home pay for the artists, more people listening, even if paying less for individual streams, can mean more money.

Isn't one of the strengths of the internet the fact that it's easier to scale and reach a wider audience, thus having more money in the end?

Re: Justice at Spotify

#386
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Spotify barely making a profit? I think the real issue here is that people just don't want to pay as much for music like they did during the golden age of the CD. Most Spotify users are still on the free tier. Blaming streaming companies isn't gonna change that.

Last I checked that wasn't exactly the problem, at least not by itself -- even accounting for inflation we're spending several times more per capita per month on music than we used to "during the golden age of the CD." Moreover, a much higher percentage of that revenue is actually going to artists than in years past. Faced with that reality, it would be interesting to know what is actually going on. Is total dollars…

I think focusing on cents per stream is a bit complicated. In the end, are artists making more or less money than before?

Because before people would record songs from the radio on tape and listen to those. They would buy used CDs, pirate. Radio would stream the song, but you didn't know exactly how many people were listening.

I used to spend $0 on music. Now I have spotify duo for me and my wife. I also started buying vinyl records, but my bet is that the artists makes way less money from my vinyl collection than from my Spotify account

Re: Justice at Spotify

#387
post #382
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In any case, obviously the conversation is DOA if you start it from a foundational assumption that "a play is a play" That's not my foundational assumption, but I've also not heard a compelling argument that one play / minute streamed should be inherently more valuable than another play / minute streamed. It's also not clear how this value would be calculated, because I also don't think it's clear that proportion o…

> I've also not heard a compelling argument that one play / minute streamed should be inherently more valuable than another play / minute streamed. Here's a compelling irrefutable argument. Let's start the discussion from a couple of scenarios. These scenarios are not the definitive and complete set of use-cases, but are enough to prove a point. Scenario 1: User manually searches for a song and clicks play. Again the…

Don't compare Spotify against god, compare it to the alternative. Everyone has a "recommendation algorithm", it just doesn't have to be spotify's. It could be the radio, or what they see talked about in pop culture (e.g. WAP), or what their friends are listening to, etc. Spotify's algorithm has the potential to be radically more fair than any of the available alternatives. A fair algorithm is one that always shows people the songs they're most likely to appreciate, and the incentives are correctly aligned for Spotify to make a good effort to get as close as possible to that ideal (Spotify's top-tier "discover weekly" playlists are why I stick with it over any other platform). Music I listen to through the recommender is actually more valuable to me than music I picked out myself - if I only wanted to listen to music I already know about, I would just pirate it or buy it on itunes and save myself $10/month.

As an aside, I also disagree with "In scenario 3 and 4, the user just wishes to have something making noise, not anything specific, but not random". I don't just want something making noise, I want something making the kind of noise that I like to listen to, which includes a mix of old songs/artists and new ones I've never heard before.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#388
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to one source [1], Spotify users stream on average 25 hours a month. Assuming an average song is 3 minutes [2], that's 500 streams per month. Going with the $9.99 per month rate, users pay about $0.02 per stream. Currently, the artists see only $0.0038 per stream, or less than 1/5th of what Spotify makes. I think that with a 50% profit margin, Spotify should be very happy. Of course, it's not that easy / st…

The problem is that most artists do not own the distribution rights to their own music, these are owned by various record labels. Many top tier artists create their own record labels and shoulder the cost of advertising/promotion while also dramatically increasing their cuts. The fact that individuals aren't able to break out via self-publishing music is an oddity in the internet age. Why aren't there more avenues to…

> Why aren't there more avenues to hear "random new artist that matches my tastes"?

One reason is due to flat rate bundled compulsory licensing. If you run a coffee shop with live music you either restrict all performers to only play original works and still probably get threatened with lawsuits, or you pay up the ASCAP/BMI/SESAC protection money and can play whatever.

So in many contexts weirdo obscure independent artists can't compete on price (e.g. give their music away just to get it heard) because the customer has already paid for a bundled rate for popular music.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#389
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Overall, the problem for musicians is one of economics. Too many people willing to make music, not enough willing to pay. Exactly. And we have finite amount of time and attention. Just like the head of Premiere League in UK said E-Sport ( Gaming ) and other entertainment like Netflix are their competitors. And we have less time for music. It is not only an abundance of music, but also in other entertainment. K-POP e…

Microsoft inadvertently played a similar game in the 80s and 90s, by having multiple price tiers for similar products in different markets. You could buy Office at a computer store for $200, or get it bundled with a new computer for $20, or for "free" by copying the disks from someone. (Don't remember the exact prices). Then there were "upgrade" tiers and an academic discount. The free tier made it impossible for any…

> For instance, there's no such thing as a song that's slightly cheaper than a Taylor Swift hit, with slightly higher sales. You can't compete with Taylor Swift on a price/demand curve. Also, you can't compete with free.

Thank You. I need to copy this down in my book.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Music rights are split into two traditionally, the songwriting copyright and the mechanical reproduction right. Previous to the internet, media sales mostly went to the labels who held hte mechanical rights and songwriting copyright was earned directly to the artist. So if you bought a CD the label gets paid, if you play a song on the radio an artist gets paid. The music industry lawyers were incredibly smart when th…

>" Previous to the internet, media sales mostly went to the labels who held hte mechanical rights and songwriting copyright was earned directly to the artist."So if you bought a CD the label gets paid, if you play a song on the radio an artist gets paid. This is not correct. Mechanical royalties have always belonged to the songwriter. A record label pays mechanicals to a songwriter's publishing company who then passe…

Perhaps the GP meant to identify the two rights as the right to reproduce the composition (mechanical) and the master right. The royalty on streaming services for the former is even smaller than the latter.
Post reply on HN