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Encountering Thomas Sowell

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231–240 of 272 posts

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#231
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy" if it's not, then would wildly unequal outcomes not imply some races are superior to others? the science indicates that this is not the case so how else can it be explained? --- Hmmm people didn't like this. I will add the statistic I can't get out my head: Incarceration rates in USA (adult male) per 100k White - 450 Hispanic - 831 Black - 2306 Asian - 210 I don't think…

Please explain, with science - why first and second generation black immigrants from the caribbean and africa do better economically than black families who have been in american for generations? I mean according to racial identity they should have the same end results right? I'll wait. For the science...

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Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've been through this argument, recently, and I'm a little disappointed that you're framing this observation as if that discussion hadn't occurred already. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23766155 The implication of your comment is that the alternative to "the nuclear family" is "single-parent families". But the other alternative to nuclear families is "extended families", which you yourself have written about…

I recall that argument, I just don’t read the platform page as charitably as you do. Even in an extended family network, the two parent unit is the nucleus. Particularly in view of the conspicuous absence of the word “father,” I read the platform point as seeking to further normalize the situation where kids are raised in households that lack fathers but includes other relatives (usually grandmothers and aunts). I ag…

Thanks. But, see, now it's you reading tea leaves. The original language read:

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another , especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. (em mine)

It's explicit about extended families.

I think we should be able to quickly agree that there are two things going on here:

First, the part you're responding to: Black culture contends with a great deal of blame and social disapproval regarding single mothers and absence of fatherhood (something Thomas Sowell talks a lot about).

Second, like many cultures around the world, including several in Europe, Black culture relies on multigenerational extended family networks for child care. Those family networks were, as I'm certain from previous discussions you agree, explicitly targeted by housing segregationists to keep Black families out of suburban enclaves and to keep Black students out of the best-performing schools.

There's apparently this whole sort of internal cultural debate about Black advancement --- I'm a white dude and talking out of my ass here, but, like, I read some stuff --- between what you might call the Booker T. Washington school, which says Black advancement has to come from Black people improving their own circumstances and correcting the problems that are holding them back, and the W.E.B. DuBois school, which says that the first order of business is to secure formal, recognized equality with white people. It strikes me that you can read Sowell vs. BLM in that light.

They might both be right, with regards to families! Certainly, Oak Park needs to stop rigging systems to keep extended Black families from taking root here. And it's hard to deny that children are better off raised by more than one loving stable caregiver, though we might go back and forth about how important it is that the other stable caregiver be a father, vs. for instance a same-sex partner or a committed grandparent --- I had friends growing up raised by grandparents and those grandparents were probably a lot more conscientious than a lot of our parents.

At any rate, my main argument here is that this "nuclear family" stuff is a weird bone to pick with BLM. They're an easy target! They believe that we can beat back racism without reforming all of capitalism! Pick that fight, not the one that actually does implicate 75 years of racist housing policies that created the impoverished neighborhoods that have trapped and killed so many Black people.

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#233
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the pair of distinctions chosen makes sense in some cases and not in others. I provided two examples in my comment above.

I don't see any examples in your comment.

I might be engaging a troll, but I'll ctrl-c ctrl-v.

"It may be that libertarian/authoritarian Left is a meaningful distinction in some contexts and not others; or that authoritarian Left/Right is a useful categorization for some purposes, but not for others."

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#234
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically it means children being raised by their biological parents.

So foster kids like me aren't traditional?

That's the point. There will be people who look down on your foster family for not being their idea of "traditional" and therefore inferior.

Increasingly, lots of different kinds of families are being recognized as good, and they're pushing back against people who insist that only one kind of family is acceptable.

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#235
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where all that money went. I do know that I, along with several other thousand people, helped fund our local protests and events. I don't know of anyone who donated to "Black Lives Matter". The donations I was aware of went towards specific events or pre existing charity funds for specific causes, such as community centers or legal fee funds. Again this is all anecdotal. I would assume it is fair to say…

Overall you seem to be saying you don't know anything about the actual organization or people at the helm of BLM, or what they've done with the money they've collected, but you hope it's all good. I guess I agree with all of that, but I don't feel like it's a strong argument.

You would be hard pressed to find anyone who protested over the summer that has had any contact with or knows anything about or even donated money to the BLM non-profit or even cares what they have on their website. It's a catchy phrase that captures the essence of what many people were protesting and not much more. Personally, I gave money to the naacp.

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this as well. It would be wonderful if there were a major political party in the US advocating for liberties, families, and the cultivation of markets. Modern Republicans claim to be this, and in practice... aren't.

And yet despite what the media constantly drums into us, this is what Trump actually stands for, if you listen to him directly.

I think that you have a point about how the media portrayal of Trump differed from the reality, but Trump is an example of what I'm saying. He had some good instincts, and a vague sense that we lost our way forty or so years ago, and he may value family, markets, and some sort of liberty, but he can't mount a coherent defense of those things, because he doesn't really understand them. He has some positions, albeit flexible ones and an odd mix at that, but no underlying principles — no philosophy of liberty. How can you expect to move a country in the right direction, and make a lasting change to how we think politically, without principles?

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#237
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So foster kids like me aren't traditional?

No, a foster family is not a traditional family. That's not a value judgement, it's a basic classification. Is there a point to your line of questioning?

I'm trying to figure out why the GP was triggered by some random BLM statement about families.

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His central thesis, that any differing outcomes between racial populations is evidence of racism, is the single topic that Thomas Sowell addressed more than any other. I am unaware of this idea in Kendi's work, please could you reference Kendi or Sowell on this specific point?

"One either allows racial inequities to persevere, as a racist, or confronts racial inequities, as an anti-racist. There is no in-between safe space of 'not racist'" -- Kendi https://millennial-grind.com/30-quotes-from-how-to-be-an-ant... That philosohy departs from popular understanding of MLK dramatically . Inequities are results , so he's basically saying that you will forever be trying to manipulate outcomes to a…

Thanks. I've also found a definition of 'racial inequities' and an example from Kendi from the same chapter:

> Racial inequity is when two or more racial groups are not standing on approximately equal footing. Here’s an example of racial inequity: 71 percent of White families lived in owner-occupied homes in 2014, compared to 45 percent of Latinx families and 41 percent of Black families. Racial equity is when two or more racial groups are standing on a relatively equal footing. An example of racial equity would be if there were relatively equitable percentages of all three racial groups living in owner-occupied homes in the forties, seventies, or, better, nineties.

This idea of the presence of (certain) inequities as evidence of racism doesn't seem controversial to me: if we took large samples of White, Black, and Latinx households in USA, accounting for regional differences and other coincident factors in the samples, wouldn't we expect the deviation in home ownership percentages to be much, much lower?

Could you (or someone else) reference a definition of racism from MLK?

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#239
post #224
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black males seem to disproportionately die at the hands of police. But BLM is about much more than just death. Death is just a catalyst that makes people notice. Lots of Black people deal with disrespect and abuse from police on a regular basis. A lot of the seemingly flippant behavior from Black people towards police that we sometimes see during recorded interactions is well earned by years of subtle, and not so sub…

> Black males seem to disproportionately die at the hands of police. There are lots of ways to measure this, which one are you talking about? There are lots of variables to control for: # of police encounters. Person being confronted while in the middle of (or just after) a committing a crime. Person being armed or not. Talking just about deaths I feel like distracts from the issue that really warrants discussion in…

It's definitely not just a policing issue. But it's also definitely partially a policing issue. And fewer things can make a people feel more powerless than authority figures with guns that can literally get away with murdering you. As a police officer, when you are representing an institution that was originally created to hunt down and return your enslaved ancestors to their masters, you have to really put out a strong effort to build trust. And I am just not seeing a lot of that effort, even today.

A great example of this was played out by the nypd when they came banging on the door of a blm organizer claiming to have a warrant for his arrest. They apparently did not. He didn't open his door when they refused to show him the warrant. That quickly escalated to dozens of cops and vehicles outside and pounding on his door and getting battering rams ready. What was his accused crime? Shouting in a cop's ear with a megaphone.

You get enough bs like that going on, and statistically, people are going to get killed.

Re: Encountering Thomas Sowell

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is a very charitable take. To me this statement is about making sure mothers don't have to do all the child-rearing, and coming together as a community to raise children. In any event, I definitely don't buy "tradition" as the sole reason to keep doing something a certain way. I also don't think the tradition you're talking about is nearly as traditional as you think.

The reason I don't interpret it in that innocuous way is because the founders of Black Lives Matter are self-described "trained Marxists" ( https://www.city-journal.org/marxist-revolutionaries-black-l... ), are follows of the ideologies of various Marxist theorists like Lenin and Mao ( https://time.com/5171270/black-lives-matter-patrisse-cullors... ), and therefore know full well that a core tactic of socialist/commu…

That's an amazing inference.

IIRC, The Occupy Movement heavily influenced BLM.

David Graeber talks about the origins of Occupy in The Democracy Project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Democracy_Project

Sure Anarchists like Graeber are adjacent to Socialists, Marxists, and other groups. But Anarchists are for participatory democracy, against government. The left-wing version of libertarians. So Anarchists oppose Socialists, Communists, and Liberals (today's Democrats & Republicans) equally.

I couldn't say if Occupy or BLM are Marxist, Socialist, or whatever. Or since everyone uses their own definitions, what that could possibly mean. Things get nutty when people try to use 100 year old terms to talk about contemporary stuff.

It's on my to do list to find similar write-ups about BLM. Please share if you found any.

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