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Java 16

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Re: Java 16

#231

Post by dpatriarche »

tmp7oaje wrote: post #110

As a student most of the way through a Java course, I'm wondering what Java is still used for. Java applets are dead, Android is moving on to Kotlin (apparently Google got in legal trouble with Oracle even though Java is "open source?"), and I can't think of any desktop applications that use Java anymore. Java is supposed to be able to "run anywhere," yet C++ is more portable because it doesn't require the JVM to run…

Java is not commonly used for consumer desktop applications, where it often is necessary/desirable to invest in fully native apps for Windows and MacOS. But desktop Java is quite common in business desktop applications, for example, medical devices (like radiology image viewers).

Re: Java 16

#232

Post by kaba0 »

ragnese wrote: post #201
Number157 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlins data class is functionally basically the same as a lombok @Data class used in Java. Why Java didn't keep the name "Data class" I don't know.

"Data" is such an overloaded and vague term, anyway. Almost all classes have "data", so what the heck is a "data class"? Is it one that only has data (not behavior)? Nope- these can have arbitrary methods. So, I'm kind of glad they didn't use it. (But, to clarify, I really don't care what color the bike shed is) I'm more wondering why they didn't go with "struct" or "value class", especially because the latter is exa…

Because while in the end project valhalla will not call them value classes, it is a sort of an overloaded term.

Structs/value types can be mutable, records are not. They are basically tuples with names. And as far as I know, while records have a sane default equals defined, they are still identity objects in that they are passed by reference.

Re: Java 16

#233

Post by kaba0 »

ragnese wrote: post #202
eweise wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Kotlin is more at risk than Scala on the server at least. Scala still has a lot of advanced features that sets itself apart. Kotlin is a better Java but Java is catching up fast.

Agreed. But Kotlin 1.5 will have enough interesting stuff with the new inline class and const methods that I think it'll keep its appeal for quite some time.

But I fear kotlin will fall in-between all the platforms they try to support, and will end up comparatively bad on all. Like, you can’t really target both your coroutines on each platform as well as project loom properly, same with project Valhalla and the like.

Re: Java 16

#234

Post by jicea »

ragnese wrote: post #202
eweise wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Kotlin is more at risk than Scala on the server at least. Scala still has a lot of advanced features that sets itself apart. Kotlin is a better Java but Java is catching up fast.

Agreed. But Kotlin 1.5 will have enough interesting stuff with the new inline class and const methods that I think it'll keep its appeal for quite some time.

Developing now 80% in Kotlin and 20% in Java (on backend), I really think the main advantage of Kotlin over Java is nullability. You can use @Nullable/@NotNull annotations in Java, but nullability being a part of the type system in Kotlin is better. I also love being able to create simple functions and add extension methods to existing classes. But still, nullability is the strongest advantage of Kotlin and I don’t see how Java will address it.

Re: Java 16

#235

Post by sireat »

dadoge wrote: post #12

Very cool to see that Scala continues to have a huge impact on Java’s roadmap. Records and Sealed Classes are borrowed from Scala. Could be not the best news for new Scala adoption, but good news for developers having better abstractions in Java Edit: Kotlin, and other languages should also mentioned since they also include similar features. I still think Scala has had the most influence over the years.

Besides Scala, I feel both Kotlin and Rust have been heavily influenced by Scala.

Re: Java 16

#236

Post by ragnese »

jicea wrote: post #234
ragnese wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. But Kotlin 1.5 will have enough interesting stuff with the new inline class and const methods that I think it'll keep its appeal for quite some time.

Developing now 80% in Kotlin and 20% in Java (on backend), I really think the main advantage of Kotlin over Java is nullability. You can use @Nullable/@NotNull annotations in Java, but nullability being a part of the type system in Kotlin is better. I also love being able to create simple functions and add extension methods to existing classes. But still, nullability is the strongest advantage of Kotlin and I don’t s…

Agreed about nullability. And Java will never fix it fully or I'll eat my hat.

... but, you have to be pretty damn good to win out over the native language of a platform. And if it were just Kotlin today vs. Java 16, I think Kotlin is a much nicer language, but it doesn't really differentiate itself that much. Sure, it's syntax is much nicer, but you still basically have the same semantics as Java. You have classes; everything is a reference; no const/immutable data; no (good) general way to clone things; you have the same-ish type system with inheritance and interfaces, but no type classes; still have weird shit like sized numeric types with over/underflow; exceptions for error handling; etc.

At least Scala has monads and type classes, so you can say it actually has some expressability that Java truly doesn't. I'm not sure that Kotlin has that. Clojure is a totally different beast that really doesn't directly compete over Java devs, IMO. It just happens to use the JVM as a platform.

Re: Java 16

#237

Post by nomercy400 »

tmp7oaje wrote: post #110

As a student most of the way through a Java course, I'm wondering what Java is still used for. Java applets are dead, Android is moving on to Kotlin (apparently Google got in legal trouble with Oracle even though Java is "open source?"), and I can't think of any desktop applications that use Java anymore. Java is supposed to be able to "run anywhere," yet C++ is more portable because it doesn't require the JVM to run…

Most OpenJDK implementations do not require a license.

There are multiple implementations of the Java VM. Java is designed by a collaboration of companies and OpenJDK is the reference implementation. Based on the license of the company, its implementation is free or not.

Now, Oracle was the biggest and most well known contributor of OpenJDK for a long time (and probably still is). And Oracle did something unusual, which is that they made their own version no longer free. Which is why you are confused. You can still get Java from Oracle, with Long Term Support, but now it is paid support.

The OpenJDK reference implementation is still free, and many companies have made their own tweaks and provide Long Term Support for these versions, mostly because they use tons of Java and/or want others to keep using Java because of its massive ecosystem, for which they can provide consulting/paid support. Note, you can still run these versions commercially, but if you want support you likely have to pay.

The Google issue was that before all this OpenJDK stuff, all designing of Java was done by a single company, Sun, which was bought by Oracle. So a single company designed, developed, implemented, maintained, and built up the ecosystem of Java. This includes years of R&D in what keywords to use, and how classes work, basically the rules of the language. Tons of developers got into Java. And they attracted big customers like banks and governments to pay them for this R&D with support and development. Then came Google and they said, we like this language design and ecosystem and developer skills, but we don't want to pay for that support, so thanks for all the hard designing of your language, but we will create our own implementation and pay you nothing. Basically Google didn't want to pay it's share of the Java R&D. Now things get a bit blurry because of Oracle, which bought Sun, and tried to make a lot more money off Java while reducing R&D spending. So Oracle isn't too popular either.

Things have improved since Oracle decided that Java isn't something to make a lot of money off, and the whole Google debacle. Now Oracle is mostly stewarding the language and other companies are now also contributing features. The past few years there have been some good and strong updates to Java, making it feel more like a leading language than a trailing language.

Basically, get AdoptOpenJDK, latest version if possible, and don't use preview features.

Re: Java 16

#238

Post by ragnese »

kaba0 wrote: post #233
ragnese wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. But Kotlin 1.5 will have enough interesting stuff with the new inline class and const methods that I think it'll keep its appeal for quite some time.

But I fear kotlin will fall in-between all the platforms they try to support, and will end up comparatively bad on all. Like, you can’t really target both your coroutines on each platform as well as project loom properly, same with project Valhalla and the like.

Why can't coroutines take full advantage of Loom's green threads on JVM and do other stuff on Native/JS/whatever?

I generally agree that being multiplatform is a lofty goal. And as much as I like Kotlin, it clearly inherits some of Java's (IMO) deficiencies. I'm not sure why I'd want those deficiencies exported to my native code when I could use lots of other nice languages.

Re: Java 16

#239

Post by kaladin_1 »

Happy with the number of comments on this release.

HN is a funny place.One day you are convinced no smart person on HN is still writing Java and the next day you see droves discussing about a java release.

Re: Java 16

#240

Post by watwut »

dehrmann wrote: post #130
tmp7oaje wrote: post #110

As a student most of the way through a Java course, I'm wondering what Java is still used for. Java applets are dead, Android is moving on to Kotlin (apparently Google got in legal trouble with Oracle even though Java is "open source?"), and I can't think of any desktop applications that use Java anymore. Java is supposed to be able to "run anywhere," yet C++ is more portable because it doesn't require the JVM to run…

> still It's a very popular backend language. Ironically, "run anywhere" isn't much of a requirement for backend development. > C++ is more portable because it doesn't require the JVM to run. For backend development, this isn't much of an issue either way. These days, the main advantages C++ has to Java is startup time and no GC pauses. It's also not as portable as you'd think. Take a look at cross-platform C/C++ pro…

There are no GC pauses issues practically now and for years. Language startup is also not all that much issue.
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