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How Amazon Crushes Unions

nytimes.com

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Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#161

Post by remram »

xwolfi wrote: post #142
capableweb wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where you need to break rules and move fast Dude, we tried this. Now people in the US can't have reasonable arguments in public without wanting to kill one another. People somehow gets "cancelled" now, because some 20s-something wanted to "move fast" without thinking of the consequences. Maybe it's time we try "slow and steady" and see if the world actually ends up more equal and diverse, instead of the opposite, w…

For the kill each other, it's really a deep deep issue in education. Nothing to do with anything else really. You have to educate kids into a sort of national unity thinking. I come from France, and we're not perfect, far from it. But I was raised, not so long ago, to tolerate very diverging opinions. I enjoy debating calmly with communists, nationalists, muslims or europeanists. As long as we agree France comes firs…

A lot of this stems from the two-party system, which stems from the first-past-the-post voting system. While in France and elsewhere there is a lot of change in the political landscape (Macron's current party didn't exist 5 years ago), in the US parties are very deeply entrenched. This causes an "us vs them" situation, where people don't change sides ever, look at the other side with more than skepticism, and every issue quickly becomes partisan as half the population disagrees with the change merely because the other party brought it up.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#162

Post by nickpp »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #157
nickpp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have those thanks to the increase of productivity and competition between employees, not some unions hundreds of years ago. Maybe that was the reason initially but time has passed and today's situation favours the employee in most fields.

> We have those thanks to the increase of productivity and competition between employees, not some unions hundreds of years ago. Maybe that was the reason initially but time has passed and today's situation favours the employee in most fields. Possibly this is true for the kind of jobs that many HN readers tend to have. But many, many people have to slog it out in low-skilled or semi-skilled jobs with minimal ability…

Society does not owe you a high salary for your low-skilled job with plenty of competition. We tried it - it was called Communism and the society went broke while the workers went hungry. It was worst for both.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#163

Post by reaperducer »

blinding-streak wrote: post #3

> Amazon managers openly warned recruits that if they liked things comfortable, this would be a difficult, perhaps impossible, job. For customer service representatives, it was difficult to keep up, according to media accounts and labor organizers. Overtime was mandatory. Supervisors sent emails with subject headings like “YOU CAN SLEEP WHEN YOU’RE DEAD.” Umm, yikes.

Supervisors sent emails with subject headings like “YOU CAN SLEEP WHEN YOU’RE DEAD.”

This is what happens when the Silicon Valley startup festishists end up in charge in the real world.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#164

Post by Chris2048 »

bena wrote: post #71
Chris2048 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who do dangerous and underpaid work so a few guys can become very rich If it's underpaid, why do it? If you do it, what makes it "under" paid? By taking the job, you confirm the wage is right.

I don't like that thinking. It ignores radical power imbalances. If I, or a group I'm a part of, controls the majority of the resources, we get to decide allocation of those resources without regard to any other consideration than what we would part with. So if you go to an area with high unemployment where the businesses only offer at most $5/hr, you can also offer $5/hr even for jobs critical to your business.

What kind of power balance, specifically.

If you offer $5/hr where max rate is $5/hr the area isn't any worse off.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#165

Post by pietrovismara »

skynet-9000 wrote: post #141
capableweb wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where you need to break rules and move fast Dude, we tried this. Now people in the US can't have reasonable arguments in public without wanting to kill one another. People somehow gets "cancelled" now, because some 20s-something wanted to "move fast" without thinking of the consequences. Maybe it's time we try "slow and steady" and see if the world actually ends up more equal and diverse, instead of the opposite, w…

> if unions hadn't existed, you'd still be slaving away 6 days a week (minimum), 10 hours a day, your children would be working instead of going to school and everything labor related would certainly have been worse. This is not historically accurate. For example, Henry Ford actually increased wages (without worrying about unions, and he had literal enforcers to bully people.) He claimed to be doing it for altruistic…

> Just get a better job from an employer that literally values you more.

For most people your statement sounds like a joke. You can't "Just get a better job".

Most people are stuck in their jobs, that's why they have to put up with the bullshit from managers and customers.

Entire shitty industries wouldn't exist if people weren't blackmailable into working bad jobs.

Please please, get out of your circumstances and try to imagine how others have to live before making generalized statements like that.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#166

Post by tidepod12 »

former-aws wrote: post #133
Judgmentality wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Azure artificially inflates its market share by throwing in MS Office revenue into the mix, which is pretty misleading. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-keeps-hiding-... G Cloud was rumored to have to be #2 by 2023 or they'd shut down, and currently they are trailing quite far behind. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21815260

So does AWS. They include revenue from AWS Workmail and other SaaS offerings. Too bad MSFT or GOOG make more money than AWS with their SaaS or "Productive" offerings.

This is probably true, but such a laughably small number of people use Workmail that I doubt it has any material difference to AWS's reported numbers, so while they might not reflect the true AWS marketshare sans-Workmail, it's probably still in the same ballpark. The reason people bring it up in regards to Azure is because it does likely artificially inflate Azure's reported numbers a material amount and makes them harder to trust.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#167

Post by pietrovismara »

nickpp wrote: post #159
charlesu wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the alternative is to starve? You can take advantage of people when they’re in dire straits. That’s not indicative of some greater truth about the price of labor but a fact of exploitation.

No, the alternative is another job.

No. This is a blatant lie that keeps being repeated without thought.

The reason people work at amazon warehouses is because they don't have other choice. For many there simply are no other jobs that pay or treat you better.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#168

Post by andyjohnson0 »

nickpp wrote: post #162
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have those thanks to the increase of productivity and competition between employees, not some unions hundreds of years ago. Maybe that was the reason initially but time has passed and today's situation favours the employee in most fields. Possibly this is true for the kind of jobs that many HN readers tend to have. But many, many people have to slog it out in low-skilled or semi-skilled jobs with minimal ability…

Society does not owe you a high salary for your low-skilled job with plenty of competition. We tried it - it was called Communism and the society went broke while the workers went hungry. It was worst for both.

> Society does not owe you a high salary for your low-skilled job with plenty of competition. We tried it - it was called Communism and the society went broke while the workers went hungry. It was worst for both.

I didn't say any of that. I was commenting on the assertion that "today's situation favours the employee in most fields". Which is demonstrably untrue for many people.

And I was also implicitly asserting that society should create the conditions for all workers to be treated decently, whether or not they receive a high salary.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#169

Post by pietrovismara »

Chris2048 wrote: post #151
capableweb wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers say things like "By taking the job, you confirm the wage is right." and then wonder why everyone thinks programmers are emotionally cold. Yes, by pure math and market economics, I guess you might be right. But by hearth, I'm sure even you realize that it's not that black and white in reality.

If it's not that black and white, why not explain how rather than invoking negative programmer stereotypes?

I'm sorry for breaking the rules by being rude, but I find your kind of argument so lazy and malignant to be more offensive than any vulgarity.

In short, you just have to get your head out of your ass and see how the majority of people are living today, even in first world countries.

Re: How Amazon Crushes Unions

#170

Post by nickpp »

pietrovismara wrote: post #167
nickpp wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative is another job.

No. This is a blatant lie that keeps being repeated without thought. The reason people work at amazon warehouses is because they don't have other choice. For many there simply are no other jobs that pay or treat you better.

Then the alternative was better education and more focus during one's formative years.

It's not my fault the kids skipping class, having fun and making jokes during teacher's lessons are now paid less than me.

Society offers plenty of opportunities but not to people who did noting to prepare themselves to take advantage of them.

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