Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#351

Post by diggan » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

fingerlocks wrote: post #50

diggan wrote: post #10

Why have a specific design anyways? In both Sweden and Spain, the cars carrying mail is typically just a normal half-truck (not sure about the correct name) with the post office branding. Here are two examples: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/DA5TW8/yellow-correos-spanish-post... - https://st2.depositphotos.com/3982569/5739/i/950/depositphot... Seems to work fine. Packages gets carried in bigger trucks, but still just busi…

The United States is a vast, sprawling area with nearly every conceivable type of geography. The road conditions and residential density covers all possible ranges. The truck is designed for the worst case scenario allowable while minimizing drivers danger. Also, the USPS uses panel vans in denser areas. My neighborhood in Seattle has the mail delivered in a Sprinter/ProMaster/Transit thing, but weird trucks are ubiq…

> The United States is a vast, sprawling area with nearly every conceivable type of geography. The road conditions and residential density covers all possible ranges. The truck is designed for the worst case scenario allowable while minimizing drivers danger.

I'm pretty sure most of the geography in the US can be found in either Spain or Sweden as well. Except jungle I guess, but don't think you have much of that over there either. Besides the point anyway.

Yeah, the cars here do drive through a lot of different geographies as well. In the denser areas like cities, the postal workers are most often on motobikes or just walking though, depending on the density of the city.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#352

Post by diggan » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #299

tduberne wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One requirement seems to be that the driver can access the mailbox without leaving the vehicle. So the equivalent in Europe would be the bikes (or, nowadays, electric scooters) that are used to deliver mail. They are typically specifically designed for the postal service. So it might be less different than it seems at first.

I believe that this is the only correct response to this question. In the UK, we have letterboxes in our front doors. Nobody can drive up to them (mine is up two flights of steps!). So, last-yard post delivery is done on foot, and vehicles are used to deliver the postmen (and in urban areas, postmen will travel from the delivery office by foot or bicycle). The vehicles can thus be normal vans. In the US, they have ma…

> I suspect Sweden and Spain are like the UK, and not the US, in this respect.

Not really. The country side in Sweden at least have mailboxes on the kerb for everyone, it's really common. And the mail workers still seem to manage dumping the mail into there without leaving the car, without having a specialty designed car for it.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#353

Post by diggan » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #125

gambiting wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The true marvel about all of this is how somehow every other country in the world manages just fine without these requirements.

Every country's postal system is a system with a lot of interacting parts. You change one part, and it affects the others. Our postal system makes extensive use of mail delivered by vehicles directly to mailboxes that are located at the curb, on streets that are relatively dangerous for people. [0] [0] I couldn't quickly find any believable stats, but I think it's a reasonable guess to start with traffic deaths in ge…

The first part (mail directly to mailboxes) is the same everywhere I've seen it too here in Europe (mostly Spain and Sweden to be fair). But yeah, the second one makes a lot of sense. Would actually explain a lot of the design choices for anything American. We don't have that much to worry about, so we can spend less on armored postal vans.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#354

Post by IncRnd » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #257

IncRnd wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They drive about 18 miles a day on average The LLVs don't drive for an hour a day and sit in the parking lot turned off for 23 hours a day. Many routes might be 6 hours or more. You need vehicles that have AC or heat and the ability to run for an entire day. The differential cost for such a vehicle is not the cost of a battery. I'm not saying the current purchasing process is waste-free, but you need to use realist…

Carriers on many rural routes use their own vehicles. My parent's carrier drives a Subaru Outback

I hadn't even contemplated that. Thank you. That's an important use case.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#355

Post by jerf » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #47

jerf wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine more than a handful of post offices are ready to plug in all of their trucks right now. They're almost all going to need power upgrades.

Electric delivery vehicles could easily be charged overnight from regular 'residential' outlet. Since average mail route is 45miles [1]. At 1000Wh/mile - that's only 45kWh of charge needed per vehicle. [1] https://www.grit.com/community/usps-rural-delivery-factoids

Roll down to your post office during off hours and count the number of trucks. I live in a very small city (people used to SF or NY wouldn't even call it a "city") and we've got dozens.

Not sure where you're getting the 1000Wh/mile number, but if it's from "normal driving" it won't apply. Mail delivery is stop and start, which is much worse. (If regenerative braking was 100% it'd be fine, but it's nowhere near that.)

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#356

Post by jerf » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #75

antattack wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric delivery vehicles could easily be charged overnight from regular 'residential' outlet. Since average mail route is 45miles [1]. At 1000Wh/mile - that's only 45kWh of charge needed per vehicle. [1] https://www.grit.com/community/usps-rural-delivery-factoids

Probably more like 300Wh/mile. A Tesla Model 3 gets 4miles per kWh and that’s measured at higher average speed. At 3.3miles per kWh and 1.3kW for a typical L1 charger (literally just any standard 120V outlet), the average 45 mile range (13.5kW) would be charged in just 10 hours. With probably 14-16 hours charging each night, that's plenty to replenish greater than average usage as well. Put a 300 mile range battery i…

"A Tesla Model 3 gets 4miles per kWh"

At cruising speed, I assume? Delivery is going to be radically worse, because it has a ton of start and stop operation, the worst case for consumption.

You also seem to be spec'ing what it looks like for a post office to recharge one vehicle. What about dozens, plural? A current post office needs only marginally greater power than a residence. Charging dozens of electric vehicles is going to need more than that.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#357

Post by olivermarks » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

KingOfCoders wrote: post #227

olivermarks wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE firewalls are designed to deflect the enginedown and under in a head on collision. Vans with engine sitting between the driver and passenger in a doghouse, or worse engine in back makes their knees first on the scene of impact with little protection. The more bodywork and chassis/monocoque between you and the crumple zone the better.

Did you watch the video? It says the exactly opposite thing. No impact to knees. No impact from steering wheel. Comparable to normal cars with hoods.

Yes that was said at the time about why flat front vehicles were safe in the sixties. rule of thumb is the heavier/bigger the vehicle the more front end protection you have. These look pretty flimsy like the Grummans.

Hopefully they have designed bracing into the frame to protect occupants.It's the high speed impacts by other vehicles that are the worry. Multi stop delivery is a major risk on busy roads. At least the design has the driver's feet just behind the front axle, would be interested to see the impact crumple one design.

http://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/postal-worker-injured-af...

Separately it is going to be very hot in that cab with all that glass

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#358

Post by CathedralBorrow » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

lordloki wrote: post #349

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to offend without intending to, so I don't get how your intentions are relevant. Yes it can be annoying and difficult to consider the impact of your words and how they might be perceived by other, different, people. It would be simpler if you didn't have to think about that at all. But is that really the argument? It's a big hassle and you'd rather not have to do it?

It is too big of a hassle. We should not have to overanalyze everything we say. It is not even possible. We don't speak in code, we speak in highly interprative languages. Many meanings and interpretations of a statement can be made. People from different ages, regions, religions, etc. will interpret things different ways. It is literally impossible to view everything you say through all possible interpretations. The…

> It is literally impossible to view everything you say through all possible interpretations. There is no way that any single person can know every possible interpretation of what they say.

100% agreed. Don't see how it relates to what I wrote however.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#359

Post by antattack » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #356

Robotbeat wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably more like 300Wh/mile. A Tesla Model 3 gets 4miles per kWh and that’s measured at higher average speed. At 3.3miles per kWh and 1.3kW for a typical L1 charger (literally just any standard 120V outlet), the average 45 mile range (13.5kW) would be charged in just 10 hours. With probably 14-16 hours charging each night, that's plenty to replenish greater than average usage as well. Put a 300 mile range battery i…

"A Tesla Model 3 gets 4miles per kWh" At cruising speed, I assume? Delivery is going to be radically worse, because it has a ton of start and stop operation, the worst case for consumption. You also seem to be spec'ing what it looks like for a post office to recharge one vehicle. What about dozens, plural? A current post office needs only marginally greater power than a residence. Charging dozens of electric vehicles…

10 vehicles, charged for 8 hours would draw 234Amps of current. About as much as single residential drop. Some houses even have 400Amp panels.

Given that USPS fleet would be upgraded over number of years - power delivery is really not a problem.

Re: Why the new USPS mail trucks look so weird

#360

Post by Gravityloss » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #253

Robotbeat wrote: post #132

It's interesting that "cost" is the reason given for why these vehicles aren't electric, but... how could that be? Batteries for electric carmakers are not that expensive any more, maybe $150/kWh. LLVs are currently horrendously inefficient (fleet average of about 9mpg). They have a ~13 gallon tank for a range of about 120 miles. They drive about 18 miles a day on average (total fleet average, so some are idle and pr…

That's essentially what the German Post did. They developed their own all electric van the streetscooter. Unfortunately they could not turn it into a viable business and sell enough units to others, so they shuttered the operation last year. Quite unfortunate, because I believe the project was well ahead of its time.

Local postal company started using Swiss electric tricycles, though slightly customized. I imagine they aren't cheap to buy, but maybe total cost of ownership is reasonable? Also I assume they can tolerate winters well compared to two wheeled vehicles, yet can navigate narrow spaces.

https://www.post.ch/en/about-us/responsibility/our-prioritie...