Live data from Hacker News

Justice at Spotify

unionofmusicians.org

71–80 of 405 posts

Re: Justice at Spotify

#71
post #7

#abolishcopyright. Musicians if you’re listening, find a different way to earn a living than depending upon the enslavement of ideas (and by extension, individuals). Copyright is abhorrent, and needs to go. There are better ways.

This is an interesting take I haven't heard much before. Could you expand on what the alternatives are?

Other than performance and merchandise, I think Patreon is really the big ticket right now.

I suppose, in reality, this has been the case for around 3 decades now. Unless you have the marketing department, you don't make money from music sales.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the money has always gone to a middleman, be it record companies or Spotify. If Spotify gets any more expensive I can guarantee people will go back to privacy, music will become less accessible and those niche bands that Spotify knows I may like will never get found. I understand the need to get paid more, but I am not sure killing Spotify is the solution.

And what do you expect to happen to Spotify when the musicians leave for someplace that pays them appropriately?

The answer is piracy again.

For a moment in time, piracy of movies and series was at a low point. Recently, with the fragmentation of all the different streaming services it's rising again.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#73
post #27

So I wanted to try put this into perspective since "a penny per stream" is intentionally meant to sound insignificant. This seems like it would roughly double Spotify's costs: https://www.republicworld.com/technology-news/apps/how-much-... And Spotify is already paying out 75% of it's revenue to royalty holders: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/spotify-pr... So unless you believe that Spotify is bad…

> And Spotify is already paying out 75% of it's revenue to royalty holders

Realize that the royalty holders are not the musicians, but typically the major labels. The musicians get virtually nothing.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting take I haven't heard much before. Could you expand on what the alternatives are?

Mostly merchandising and touring.

How does an author do this? An artist? How much money can the 20th musician in a day doing a tour expect to really make? An orchestra?

How about movies? They'd cease to exist (barring a few youtube-quality productions).

Re: Justice at Spotify

#75
post #19
post #10

The ask is 1p/stream. I'm not sure that that's actually sustainable without a massive rise in spotify prices, given the proportion of free users and even paid users that listen to more than 1000 tracks a month. If spotify raises prices, consumers go back to piracy. I'm not sure this will have the effect they want. Let's imagine a radio station. Something medium sized, about a million listeners. They play a track. Are…

If this is not sustainable for the artists, how is this different than piracy? I'd say it is even worse, because people is paying but the money goes to a middleware company that is not paying the right price. It is like buying CDs from the street sellers.

> If this is not sustainable for the artists, how is this different than piracy?

The difference is that every artist has a choice if his music lands on Spotify or not - and if he accepts the conditions offered. The main problem of many of these artists is that they signed bad distribution deals with their labels and are giving away a big chunk % of streaming revenues. That isn't Spotifys fault.

Also, according to Spotifys latest financial statement, they are expecting a $200-300m operating loss for 2021, so i find it hard to argue that Spotify is being "too greedy" when they aren't even profitable.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#76

Does anyone know if this so-called union is an actual union? As in, do they collect dues, do they represent a substantial % of artists, and do its members already collectively bargain with Spotify and similar publishers? If Spotify says no, do these demands have any teeth?

It looks like yet another cosplay of 20th century labor politics, but with the typical 21st century twist of diverting the fight from those who wield power to... the paying customers, for whatever reason.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#77

> Pay us at least one cent per stream > Spotify generally pays between $. 003 and $. 005 per stream Is Spotify making so much money that paying 3 orders of magnitude more money per stream is a realistic option?

They're not asking for "orders of magnitude" more, but 2-3X more. The current average royalty is 0.38c per stream, and they want 1c per stream.

That said, apparently most of Spotify's revenues already goes to pay artists, so it would not be achievable without significant increases in Spotify's fees. This would in turn reduce user numbers, leading to fewer streams, more users turning to piracy, etc.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#78
post #27

So I wanted to try put this into perspective since "a penny per stream" is intentionally meant to sound insignificant. This seems like it would roughly double Spotify's costs: https://www.republicworld.com/technology-news/apps/how-much-... And Spotify is already paying out 75% of it's revenue to royalty holders: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/spotify-pr... So unless you believe that Spotify is bad…

> And Spotify is already paying out 75% of it's revenue to royalty holders Realize that the royalty holders are not the musicians, but typically the major labels. The musicians get virtually nothing.

Isn't that a problem generally in the music industry?

Re: Justice at Spotify

#79
A penny a stream is honestly way more than "a play" of music has cost. I'll admit I'm off the beaten path with how I do music but this is my setup:

1. I buy the CD release of music because I like to collect them, and the art is cool (I listen to folk metal and they usually do some cool stuff with album art and the front of the CD).

2. I rip them to FLACs and store them on my plex server

3. I stream them to my phone/etc.

So I'm really used to paying something like... {cost of cd} / {lifetime play count}. Which honestly is probably a lot higher than what a single stream of music earns the artists but a lot lower than 1c per play.

Just as an example, let's take Sonic Firestorm by Dragonforce. I probably started listening in 2007 or so. 14 years. I listened to the entire CD probably at least 3 times a week for the entirety of high school. So 4 years of high school times 52 weeks a year times 3 plays a week times 9 tracks per play is 5616. I'd guess I paid 12 bucks for the CD (it's 10 on amazon right now). So that's 0.00214 dollars per play. And that's just high school. Though admittedly that's one of my favorite albums, but I do think Alestorm and Ensiferum and several other bands are up in that play count too for my 4 years of college.

And I don't think many bands want to make the argument of "yeah but we're one of those bands you're gonna buy our CD for 12 bucks and listen to 3 times and then we end up in the back of your CD holder because every time you flip through you're like 'nah not really feeling them right now' for weeks on end".

So... I dunno. I'm all for paying artists more. But I would really prefer the way we do that is decrease the (massive) cut that goes to the labels and send more to the artists.

I've been buying my CDs on bandcamp as much as I can recently because as I understand it, bands capture a lot more of that sticker price that way. At least it seems like they do. I get CDs from residential addresses in Norway, anyway.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#80
I would be interested to see what would happen if Spotify changed the free account to something really small (and maybe annual). For example $10 a year. I'd guess that's still small enough that most people will pay it.

There are a lot of comments saying Spotify can't raise prices - but Netflix has repeatedly raised prices successfully. I'm now paying them double what I originally did when I signed up.

Post reply on HN