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Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

thetyee.ca

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Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact, if you want to reduce the price of houses, increase the supply instead of instituting rent control and hoping for spooky action at a distance.

You can also work on reducing demand. Reducing population growth to negative numbers will bring benefits across the economy and ecology of the planet.

Thing is we already have this. The birth rate in the US is 1.73 children per woman, and the equilibrium rate is 2.1. As development increases, the birth rate drops further. Generally speaking if you want to reduce population, push for development. Schools, healthcare, economic empowerment, the works. It's the best contraceptive. That's fine in the macro, but the micro problem remains people will still want to live more in nice places than crap places. The Bay Area happens to be really, really nice - from a climate perspective that is.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#92
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Singapore also has some particular relevance to the US because of its multi-ethnic nature. Often when I talk to Americans about public housing a really common argument is the image of public housing as a sort of racist thing that creates enclaves for certain (usually low-income) groups. Yet Singapore, with its integration policies has virtually completely avoided this, and it basically can only do it effectiv…

Singapore is "multi-ethnic" in the sense that it broke off from nearby Malaysia in order to have a Chinese majority city state, and adopted explicit policies to try to manage the Malay and Indian population in order to ensure that it is an ethnically Chinese run government. You can listen to some of Lee Kuan Yew's speeches to see how multi-ethnic it is, and what he thought of the US approach to diversity -- e.g. "mul…

Fun fact it didn't "break off" from Malaysia, it was kicked out. Singapore is the only country in history, to the best of my knowledge, to gain independence against its own will.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact, if you want to reduce the price of houses, increase the supply instead of instituting rent control and hoping for spooky action at a distance.

You can also work on reducing demand. Reducing population growth to negative numbers will bring benefits across the economy and ecology of the planet.

Not necessarily benefit the economy. People are a resource.

It is all about balance, in a turbulent world

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#94
post #78

A sorta aside. The absolute best AirBnB experience we ever had was in Vienna. Of course it's an anecdote, but we had absolutely no trouble finding convenient, cheap, and large places to stay under $70/night. This made us think that the housing market there must be quite cheap compared to where we're from. We ended up staying in an absolutely beautiful flat about 20 minutes from the city center via U-Bahn for <$60/nig…

Thanks in part to AirBnB, that apartment is approaching 3k/mo in Vienna as well.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#95

So a hundred years ago the city imposed crazy taxes on land owners and then bought the land for themselves. Then the city built a lot of housing on the now city-owned land via non-profit construction. The article doesn’t make a strong attempt to explain how their housing affordability is “solved” though. How easy it to find a new apartment to rent? How much does it cost? What do you get for that price? How does this…

When you rent you usually do it via a Makler (real estate agent), who is going to ask for 2 months of rent as his/her fee. This is not the deposit, which is usually 3 months, and not the first month rent, this money is gone forever. So people tend to rent on the longer term, 5-10 years easily, because you have to have about 6 months of rent in cash available just to start.

Which sucks if you find a job somewhere else, or just choose badly and it turns out the neighbours are loud, or the house is a sh*tty concrete building with paper walls built in the 50s...

If you are very lucky or have connections, you can rent privately, and then you don't have to pay the Makler. But the number of apartments available like this is very low, I'd say I moved here from the UK, and while the UK (especially London) has its problems, I would choose that system _any time_ over what's here in Vienna.

To add insult to injury, the housing prices are sky-high, almost as bad as in London, while the salaries are much lower. So buying an apartment is not really an option unless you can sell another one, or get some support from family.

On the other hand, my wife lost her job, and for the first 5 months or so she gets more than 50% of her salary as Arbeitslosengeld. So that offsets the extremely high taxes a bit.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#96
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, just limit office space and thus local jobs. Except that’s not what local residents want. SF is doing everything it can to maximize home prices while minimizing rent and property tax increase for current residents. Which is arguably exactly what’s in current local voters best interest. Democracy working as intended?

> Democracy working as intended? 0-day: San Francisco real estate prices vulnerable to 51% attack.

Sure, though you have to get people to vote opposite their personal interests, granted that’s fairly common behavior. Anyway, this seems to be something you can’t actually say as people strongly object without articulating why.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#97
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it addresses it on the effect side more than the cause side (inequality). This is the way they are increasing supply.

This is an unpopular opinion to be sure, but I believe in wealth inequality and income inequality, so long as the standard of living at the bottom is reasonable - and there exists meaningful social mobility. I'd rather tax it on the backend than impede the front end. This is just a matter of opinion of course.

I think that's probably a fairly popular opinion - I agree with it. I just don't see property tax as making any meaningful impact on the wealthy (in my area).

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#98
post #83
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It said they had a highly progressive land tax and additional tax on vacant land. This incentivizes utilization of land, but also makes it economically unfeasible to create apartments if you must pay the tax and compete with the government housing. I'd love to see the data for Libertarians promoting land tax.

> I'd love to see the data for Libertarians promoting land tax. You can Google this. There’s a lot of disagreement but some of them are for it. I would imagine that the LVT would make it hard to compete with government housing at some price points, but I don’t know too much about Vienna in particular. My understanding was they they were trying to write tax policy to maximize the private market production of housing a…

Of course you can find any opinion in a large enough group, but that doesn't make it representative of them. For example, you can find democrats that support gun rights over gun control, but that's not indicative of the party.

Considering the article said the government housing was run by non-profit cooperatives that put all ths money back into the building... I don't see how someone could operate a for profit apartment building and make any money once there was a majority market share by the government.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#99
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is "multi-ethnic" in the sense that it broke off from nearby Malaysia in order to have a Chinese majority city state, and adopted explicit policies to try to manage the Malay and Indian population in order to ensure that it is an ethnically Chinese run government. You can listen to some of Lee Kuan Yew's speeches to see how multi-ethnic it is, and what he thought of the US approach to diversity -- e.g. "mul…

Fun fact it didn't "break off" from Malaysia, it was kicked out. Singapore is the only country in history, to the best of my knowledge, to gain independence against its own will.

Malta, and iirc a couple other island colonies were kicked out of the british empire back in the day. Malta's especially came right after a referendum which voted to remain as part of the UK and actually to integrate closer, but it wasn't popular in the UK as the island was costly to keep and no longer relevant as a naval base due to changing strategic concerns.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#100
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is "multi-ethnic" in the sense that it broke off from nearby Malaysia in order to have a Chinese majority city state, and adopted explicit policies to try to manage the Malay and Indian population in order to ensure that it is an ethnically Chinese run government. You can listen to some of Lee Kuan Yew's speeches to see how multi-ethnic it is, and what he thought of the US approach to diversity -- e.g. "mul…

That's a fair characterization of the workings of the state, which has never really lived up to any democratic norm to be honest, but if you actually walk through Singapore and see how people live, honestly it is a successful multiethnic society. LKY might have a lot of non-PC views, but you wouldn't know it just by visiting the place. And that's I think what matters. And on the humanitarian front, yeah Singapore has…

> That's a fair characterization of the workings of the state, which has never really lived up to any democratic norm to be honest, but if you actually walk through Singapore and see how people live, honestly it is a successful multiethnic society.

Well, this is the LKY argument: In terms of outcomes, people are unequal and there will always be persistent differences between ethnic groups. The ranking isn't necessarily fixed over thousands of years (Greece was once the world leader and now has fallen behind), but at any point in time, there is never equality of outcomes. There will always be some groups ahead and others behind, and these positions change very slowly, and not through any mechanisms that can be controlled by policy.

It shouldn't be government (or private sector) policy to try to pretend that they are equal or to try to make them equal, as that only leads to racial resentment, constant race wars and a Handicapper General to equalize everything. The SG approach is to suppress anyone trying to stir up this resentment or trying to advocate for racial equality. Once people learn to accept inequality, mind their own business, and just do the best they can for themselves, then you can have a successful heterogeneous society.

But that approach offends the West's moral sensibilities, which is to try to have incredibly heterogeneous societies while insisting on equal outcomes. So the West will destroy itself with a combination of constant lying about race ("we are all equal, differences must be due to some form of oppression") as well as the imposition of a series of ever more tyrannical Handicapper Generals as it vainly tries to make the human nature conform to a delusion.

So whereas you make it sound like an accident, that despite permanenent racial inequality SG looks like a nice place "on the ground", LKY would say that it is because of the acceptance of this inequality that people in SG can live in relative peace whereas in the West this is impossible.

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