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Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

thetyee.ca

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Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#41

Post by giantg2 »

ch4s3 wrote: post #39
giantg2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the article mentioned that the city was left leaning and also referenced Marx, I guess it's not surprise that they opted to tax people out of their property so that the city could acquire it.

Is that what they did? If by that you mean that they used the tax system to discourage the development of investment properties and undeveloped land as well, then yes I guess. However land value taxes aren't a marxist idea, in fact LVT has been advocated for by Smith, Ricardo, Friedman, Stiglitz, and so on. Even a lot of libertarians like LVT.

It said they had a highly progressive land tax and additional tax on vacant land. This incentivizes utilization of land, but also makes it economically unfeasible to create apartments if you must pay the tax and compete with the government housing.

I'd love to see the data for Libertarians promoting land tax.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#42

Post by larsiusprime »

giantg2 wrote: post #26
larsiusprime wrote: post #3

From the article: > As both the Vienna model and Henry George[1] would suggest, the problem is forever and always the cost of land. Burdensome land costs, and the rentiers who gain massive wealth by passive land speculation, are the real enemies — not developers, not our homeowners, not our public officials. [1] https://thetyee.ca/Solutions/2018/06/04/Tax-To-Solve-Housing... (linked in the article) EDIT: From the loo…

Sometimes the taxes on the land are even more burdensome than the land itself when you look at it over even a 30 year mortgage.

Are you referring to taxes on ground rent (what is typically meant by "land tax" -- a tax on the value of the land if it was an empty lot), or taxes on improvements (what's built on the land)?

Conventional property tax is a mixture of pure land tax and a tax on improvements.

And are you talking in general, or do you have some specific insight into Vienna's particular policies?

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#43

Post by jarjoura »

aerosmile wrote: post #37

Here's the gist: the government taxed the shit out of the landlords and forced them to sell their land cheaply. Europeans generally see nothing wrong with this strategy, whereas most Americans will feel shivers down their spines. This difference comes from different attitudes around ownership. In places like China and Russia, owning a house means you get to keep the house unless enough people would benefit from you n…

| In the US, you get to keep your house no matter how much anyone - including the government - would prefer you didn't.

That's not accurate. The US, state and city governments can most definitely take private land and convert it to public use if enough people benefit from it.

https://www.justice.gov/enrd/history-federal-use-eminent-dom...

There are other means as well, a city could purchase something on the open market, or a county could purchase land and convert into a public park, or what ever suits them.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#45

Post by larsiusprime »

gyulai wrote: post #23
larsiusprime wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, increasing population generally leads to increasing land prices, so I think that's a good question. There are other things that drive land values up, however, such as just generally increased productivity due to technology and any other factor (because a more productive population earns more and can thus afford to pay more in rent to their landlords). For a full assessment I would like to see other Austrian citi…

Vienna is a bit out of the ordinary in that regard because it has been a stronghold of leftist government. The 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in Austria are Graz and Linz which don't have that kind of left-leaning policy. You can rent flats there for rates similar to Vienna public housing. But those are much smaller cities. Vienna is more comparable to Munich for instance where rents are much higher and which is a city t…

Thanks for sharing!

Question: > has less to offer along many dimensions of quality-of-life.

Which one are saying has less to offer, Munich or Vienna?

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#46

Post by throwawayboise »

aerosmile wrote: post #37

Here's the gist: the government taxed the shit out of the landlords and forced them to sell their land cheaply. Europeans generally see nothing wrong with this strategy, whereas most Americans will feel shivers down their spines. This difference comes from different attitudes around ownership. In places like China and Russia, owning a house means you get to keep the house unless enough people would benefit from you n…

> In the US, you get to keep your house no matter how much anyone - including the government - would prefer you didn't.

Not true at all. Eminent Domain is a real thing. The controversies have generally been when there is a dispute over whether the taking is for a public benefit, e.g. condeming property to make way for a private business.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#47

Post by giantg2 »

larsiusprime wrote: post #42
giantg2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the taxes on the land are even more burdensome than the land itself when you look at it over even a 30 year mortgage.

Are you referring to taxes on ground rent (what is typically meant by "land tax" -- a tax on the value of the land if it was an empty lot), or taxes on improvements (what's built on the land)? Conventional property tax is a mixture of pure land tax and a tax on improvements. And are you talking in general, or do you have some specific insight into Vienna's particular policies?

In general and total real estate property tax. I will pay at least as much property tax over the next 50 years as what I paid for my house.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#49

Post by arcticbull »

cheriot wrote: post #36
renewiltord wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, SF's population has only grown 13% from 1950 to 2020. The housing prices have grown rather differently, though. Curious to see, isn't it?

Yet employment increased 40% from 1990 to 2019[1]. Increasing employment while maintaining a cap on the number homes drives up the value of the homes closest to all those jobs. [1] 2523.4/1798.7 = 1.4 from https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SANF806NAN

Fun fact, if you want to reduce the price of houses, increase the supply instead of instituting rent control and hoping for spooky action at a distance.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#50

Post by arcticbull »

giantg2 wrote: post #33
chrischen wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we don’t want Vancouver to go down this path, then perhaps we should heed Henry George’s advice: tax land and use the proceeds to build the housing we need.

Isn't that the solution to all - tax those who have (or are not part of our tribe) to pay for "us".

It's a great way to reduce inequality, sure.

It's one way to reduce housing prices, but generally just increasing supply is simpler and more palatable.

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