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The Waste of Daylight

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Re: The Waste of Daylight

#231

Post by ogre_codes »

skrebbel wrote: post #176
8fingerlouie wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scandinavian here, i'll pass :) Most of June the sun rises from 4:30 to 4:50, and it's not until late august it rises around 6am again. Sunset is between 9pm and 10pm, civil twilight lasts until 3:42am, and the sun never goes below 12 degrees. From November to February it doesn't rise until 8am. (and sets around 4pm, astronomical twilight around 6pm) We have a large roof window that allows morning sunlight to enter o…

My theory is that most people who write on HN about waking up at sunrise (it's a common theme) live in the US, much of which is substantially closer to the equator than Northern and Central Europe. Nice mild weather with sane sunrise/sunset times all year round is definitely on the list of things I envy about the SF Bay Area.

I live in Oregon which is the same latitude as much of Europe. In the height of summer, days are 16 hours long which leaves a near perfect 8 hours of dark for sleep. It's just a tiny bit south of London and Berlin. About even with Paris, and further north than Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Greece.

It's mostly not about the middle of summer. We have fabulous long summer evenings. It's the interim months like right now, where I most miss having that extra time in the evening. I want long evenings every day possible.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#232

Post by dahart »

throw0101a wrote: post #157
hourislate wrote: post #23

I would vote for any Presidential Candidate and House Representative regardless of party on the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. That's all they would have to do to get my vote....nothing else.

> […] the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. Which goes against the current scientific/medical consensus on the issue: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Tim…

Have you checked on SRBR's position paper citations yet? We've talked several times about how quite a few citations they use to justify claiming that DST has negative health effects are coming from research that does not study DST, and how the position paper is just speculating that DST outcomes might share the same results. Except they don't admit they're speculating, they claim it's "strong" evidence.

Are you not yet convinced that the position paper is making stronger claims than the research they cite can support?

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#233

Post by dahart »

throw0101a wrote: post #192
dschuler wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the first link: "Less than 200 years ago, humans organized their daily routines by the sun clock ... which was in synchrony with their body clock. Now, most of us ... use electric light at night... these new conditions challenge our health and can cause safety problems, [and] ... become even worse under Daylight Saving Time (DST)". It seems like most people would agree that living in synchrony to the solar d…

> For example, New York’s social clock closely matches the sun clock in winter during Standard Time: when the social clock says it is noon, it is very close to midday, the sun’s highest point in the sky. During DST, however, New York’s social clock shows noon when it is only 1100 h by the sun clock. People who have to get up at 0600 h by the sun clock in winter have to get up at 0500 h by the sun clock under DST, des…

> Personally I do not have time/desire to crawl down this specific rabbit hole

It seems weird to say this when you've posted dozens of times on this topic with many, many links and quotes to the arguments that support your position. Are you not at all curious about whether the abstracts and conclusions are actually true?

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#234

Post by asoneth »

ako wrote: post #117
wikibob wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please write that app. Would buy for $4.99.

Here you go: https://apps.apple.com/mk/app/wake-up-light-sunrise-alarm/id...

That seems like it solves the problem in the reverse direction.

I want an app that allows me to shift my schedule to the sun, not sync an artificial sun to my schedule.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#235

Post by dsego »

e12e wrote: post #228
dsego wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to lack of school buildings in a lot of places in my country we have school in two shifts. These rotate, one week from 8 to 13:30 and the next 14-19:30. As a kid I had to walk around 30min to and from school, carrying a small torch when it was dark. Just to give you some perspective.

I'm more thinking about parents here. Kids can do whatever we demand from them ;) I assume your parents were home when you got home at eight - but how about the early shift - were you alone from 1330 until 1700?

Pretty much, me and my brother watching tv, doing homework or playing in the yard. They were also teachers, so sometimes we were left alone the whole morning or afternoon. And this was a time before cellphones. Although, it's a safe small town and we weren't trouble makers.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#236

Post by iso1631 »

_ph_ wrote: post #194
iso1631 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, they didn't mandate a return to standard time along with it It's arbitary anyway -- Spain and North Macedonia are on the same time zone, but in A Coruña in winter the sun rises at 9am, while in Bitola it comes up at 7am, despite being on about the same latitude. What makes "standard time" standard? Sun at the highest between 1130 and 1230? Timezones have a rough connection to solar mean, but on stand…

In this context: the time which is valid in each country outside of the DST shift. Yes, there is some mismatch between the time zones and the local astronomical time, but this was decided long ago for the sake of good inter operation between the countries. If the EU wanted to get quickly rid of DST, just not doing the switch to DST would have been the means of choice. Renegotiation of all time zones first will take m…

What makes year round winter time objectively better than year round summer time as a rule?

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#237

Post by philwelch »

maccard wrote: post #141
philwelch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think most people really care about sunrise. Humans don't seem to naturally rise with the sun. I don't know anyone who plans their day based on when the sun rose. Probably everyone you know habitually uses artificial lighting.

For anyone living north of san Francisco it's pretty much a requirement. If I didn't use artificial light my winter days would be 6 hours long and my summer days would be 18 hours longm

If that were true, every latitude north of San Francisco would have been completely uninhabited for most of human history.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#238

Post by throw0101a »

dahart wrote: post #233
throw0101a wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, New York’s social clock closely matches the sun clock in winter during Standard Time: when the social clock says it is noon, it is very close to midday, the sun’s highest point in the sky. During DST, however, New York’s social clock shows noon when it is only 1100 h by the sun clock. People who have to get up at 0600 h by the sun clock in winter have to get up at 0500 h by the sun clock under DST, des…

> Personally I do not have time/desire to crawl down this specific rabbit hole It seems weird to say this when you've posted dozens of times on this topic with many, many links and quotes to the arguments that support your position. Are you not at all curious about whether the abstracts and conclusions are actually true?

Because I've collected a link here and a link there over the course of ~2 years: which basically is four time changes. There's always a smattering of news reports that link to various places each time that happens. From last fall:

* https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/13161222923180687...

So the end result may be 'large', but it's only a modest amount of effort that snowballs.

> Are you not at all curious about whether the abstracts and conclusions are actually true?

No more curious than going into the guts of an IPCC report to see if the abstracts and conclusions about climate change are true. In the post-Gutenberg world it's hard to be an expert in everything, so we have to trust others to get the details right in other fields: on this topic I'm willing to delegate.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#239

Post by throw0101a »

dahart wrote: post #232
throw0101a wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> […] the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. Which goes against the current scientific/medical consensus on the issue: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Tim…

Have you checked on SRBR's position paper citations yet? We've talked several times about how quite a few citations they use to justify claiming that DST has negative health effects are coming from research that does not study DST, and how the position paper is just speculating that DST outcomes might share the same results. Except they don't admit they're speculating, they claim it's "strong" evidence. Are you not y…

Nope.

Every time DST comes up people say "I like daylight when I leave the office". Which is fine. And I like not having to wear a mask… but I do it anyway because I don't want to spend the energy reading the papers, so I'll just trust the experts.

My province passed some DST legislation last fall—put forward by some random legislator without any consultations AFAICT—and the experts weighed in after the fact:

* https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/13161222923180687...

On this topic I'm willing to delegate things out to others. I just pass along the my 'research' in case someone may choose to nerd out.

And given that it appears that most sleep and chronobiology societies, in multiple countries, come to the same conclusion/position, seems that there's a strong leaning in one direction in the research.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#240

Post by willlma »

ogre_codes wrote: post #3

I try to keep my sleep schedule so I wake up shortly after daybreak for exactly this reason. I love natural light and loath sleeping through it. I've considered writing an app that sets an alarm to sunset and a reminder 9 hours prior to sunset so I can always wake with the sun and have plenty of sleep. Should be pretty simple I just haven't gotten around to it. (Though personally, I'd prefer it were a personal choice…

I built a watch face for my Garmin that emphasizes the time relative to the next solar event, so right now it reads

(last solar event in small font) Sunset 19:17

(current date/time small) Mon 15 19:26

(relative time to next solar event in large) Dusk in 17

It tracks dawn, sunrise, solar noon, sunset, and dusk. It's pretty simple but has changed how I go about my day. I don't use an alarm to wake up, but I've learned that when it's 8 hours to dawn I should be getting in bed.

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