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The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

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Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#91

Post by rubyfan »

cm2187 wrote: post #8

Another argument against the "going dark" claim is that before smartphones and the internet, the only conversations the FBI could monitor was through phonelines and mail. These were known to be easily monitored and I doubt there was much more criminal activity happening through those then than now. I would argue that the conversations that have gone online are the interactions that were previously happening in-person…

> The limits of what is legal or not have always moved (see homosexuality, drug and alcohol consumption, etc). So a 100% enforcement of the law is counter-intuitively undesirable.

This is perhaps one of the more simple and persuasive arguments against domestic surveillance and spying that I’ve heard.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#92

Post by mannerheim »

amoshi wrote: post #84
clipradiowallet wrote: post #81

FWIW, I've had a warrant executed against me by the FBI. They seized every electronic device I own, and forcibly took my biometric data(fingerprints, face scan, retinal scan) in the hopes they could unlock my devices with it. They were unable to access any LUKS-encrypted volumes, and were less than happy about that situation. Can't say much else unless I'm good with 99x anxiety for the next few days. ps: not charged,…

Very depressing how in the UK you could've been forced to disclose your password under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and gotten even 5 years jail time if you refused. I presume there isn't a US equivalent?

It's complicated. There's no specific law in the US regarding key disclosure, but you can be punished for e.g. contempt of court, maybe spoliation. In theory, the Fifth Amendment should protect individuals from self-incrimination, but courts have ruled that forcing people to disclose keys is not that.

See In re Boucher for a case where Fifth Amendment protections were not upheld and US v. Doe for a case where they were.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#93

Post by mannerheim »

eingaeKaiy8ujie wrote: post #90
amoshi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very depressing how in the UK you could've been forced to disclose your password under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and gotten even 5 years jail time if you refused. I presume there isn't a US equivalent?

What if you "forgot" the password?

In the US, contempt of court is a possible outcome.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#94

Post by voldacar »

laurent92 wrote: post #30
lbblack wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it extremely alarming that law enforcement almost everywhere around the world is attempting to undermine almost a century-fold of legitimate mathematics and science with regards to encryption and cryptography. It's a tad embarrassing that lawmakers (who aren't even computer scientists like c'mon are we for real here?) somehow forgot how and who broke the Enigma Machine. Alan Turing did that. Same thing with th…

We need to make it strategic to hide our communications. The day the CIA decides that [place any enemy] has routers all over the place in US territory and that their spying is bad, they will mandate the use of Tor instead of discouraging it. We don’t need to be at war, but we need a capable enemy.

Tor is not an end-all solution. Hidden services can be trivially unmasked (for an actor like the CIA/NSA) with traffic correlation attacks

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#95

Post by maerF0x0 »

mFixman wrote: post #74
_wldu wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years ago, if I had said that society would build a tracking system and that most people would happily carry a tracker in their pocket and pay monthly fees to support the tracking networks, I would have been laughed out of the room. But that is what happened, and most people are oblivious to this fact.

15 years ago was 2006. Almost every adult carried a cellphone everywhere back then.

I certainly didn't. But will concede I was definitely a late adopter.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#96

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

Jabbermonkey wrote: post #56
snarf21 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, these things are scary. My test for people who ask for these backdoors is to ask for them to hand me their unlocked mobile. I promise to not share any information I read/see. There is an expression in this area that I love (but I can't remember the exact phrase): If you follow anyone around for some small period of time, you will find them guilty of breaking the law.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." - Cardinal Richelieu (disputed)

I don't think that is quite comparable to now.

Back in France at the time of Richelieu, there wasn't a concept of free speech or religious freedom. Thus if you said that you thought the king was an idiot, you could be hanged. Or you doubted the Church, or doubted God existed.

Remember, blasphemy could be punished by death at that time.

Nowadays, in most free democracies you are free to say you don't believe in religion, or think the leaders are idiots and there are minimal consequences.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#97

Post by colinmhayes »

mannerheim wrote: post #92
amoshi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very depressing how in the UK you could've been forced to disclose your password under section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and gotten even 5 years jail time if you refused. I presume there isn't a US equivalent?

It's complicated. There's no specific law in the US regarding key disclosure, but you can be punished for e.g. contempt of court, maybe spoliation. In theory, the Fifth Amendment should protect individuals from self-incrimination, but courts have ruled that forcing people to disclose keys is not that. See In re Boucher for a case where Fifth Amendment protections were not upheld and US v. Doe for a case where they we…

The Boucher case is special because the ruling held that Boucher had waived fifth amendment rights for the computer by showing some of it to law enforcement. If you exercise your fifth from the start I do not believe you can be compelled to provide the state with passwords, although they can use your biometric data.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#98

Post by at-fates-hands »

lbblack wrote: post #25
cm2187 wrote: post #8

Another argument against the "going dark" claim is that before smartphones and the internet, the only conversations the FBI could monitor was through phonelines and mail. These were known to be easily monitored and I doubt there was much more criminal activity happening through those then than now. I would argue that the conversations that have gone online are the interactions that were previously happening in-person…

I find it extremely alarming that law enforcement almost everywhere around the world is attempting to undermine almost a century-fold of legitimate mathematics and science with regards to encryption and cryptography. It's a tad embarrassing that lawmakers (who aren't even computer scientists like c'mon are we for real here?) somehow forgot how and who broke the Enigma Machine. Alan Turing did that. Same thing with th…

>> Either everyone has access to a tool which can guarantee that you can blend in with the rest of the crowd.

This is already happening. When the NSA decided the best approach to combat terrorism was to scoop up all emails, text, voice and internet browsing of every citizen on a daily basis, they inadvertently created a way we can all "blend in" now.

A perfect example is the Jan 6th capitol attack. It was being planned out on the open, on social media channels. They didn't use any obfuscation in their language and still, even with all the technology they have, the massive surveillance machine couldn't stop it from happening.

I still firmly believe encryption is needed for privacy, but over the last 10-15 years, the insane amount of data being vacuumed up is allowing people to hide in plain site.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#99

Post by judge2020 »

cies wrote: post #3

I dont understand why the US people still trust these agencies. FBI, CIA, NSA have all shown to act against the democracy in many cases. If they could be trusted, they could be trusted with a backdoor. Since they cannot be trusted, the backdoor only makes them a more dangerous enemy of the people.

We don't trust them, but we do expect them to stop exceedingly violent crime, ie. terrorism and csam - and they do that well. A lot of americans don't care at all, though, and trust them regardless because they 'have nothing to hide'.

Re: The FBI Should Stop Attacking Encryption

#100

Post by grishka »

fsflover wrote: post #37
_wldu wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years ago, if I had said that society would build a tracking system and that most people would happily carry a tracker in their pocket and pay monthly fees to support the tracking networks, I would have been laughed out of the room. But that is what happened, and most people are oblivious to this fact.

Most people simply have no choice unless you are willing to switch to GNU/Linux phones. Those are not 100% ready for everything yet.

It doesn't matter what your phone runs. As long as it's communicating with the network, the carrier knows its location.
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