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The Waste of Daylight

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Re: The Waste of Daylight

#81

Post by ogre_codes »

rhino369 wrote: post #71
quicklime wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, and I've also thought about writing the same app. I've always wondered why our system of time is built around the point of "midnight", when what we really care about is "sunrise". DST is an ugly hack that we use on top of our midnight-based time system to roughly approximate a constant sunrise time. Imagine if 00:00 was defined as the time that the sun rises. You could set your alarm to 00:00 and start wor…

Our system was originally based on noon, not midnight. I don't think most people really care about sunrise. Humans don't seem to naturally rise with the sun. I don't know anyone who plans their day based on when the sun rose. You'd have 3+ hour swings in what time meant from December to June. Seems worse than even daylight savings time.

> I don't think most people really care about sunrise. Humans don't seem to naturally rise with the sun.

I do regular trips in the back of beyond. The first day everyone is up until 10-11 O'Clock in front of the camp fire hanging around with a beer. By the third day, everyone is up at dawn and asleep at 8 O'Clock.

Humans absolutely rise with the sun naturally. We've just isolated ourselves from the natural environment and forced ourselves onto arbitrary schedules most of us have a completely screwed sense of time.

If you flex your day based on sunrise, you get more useful sunlight hours... which means more time for being outside enjoying the day instead of stuck indoors. It's also a lot easier to get moving based on natural light, our bodies are programmed for it much like they are programmed for a 24 hour day.

The big issue with daylight savings time is the loss of sleep due to it all happening at once. You don't have that issue if you just have an alarm that wakes you at sunrise.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#82

Post by exmadscientist »

Interestingly, the caption on the sundial is wrong! It seems the caption writer misread "IX" upside-down as "XI"; the sundial actually runs from 3am to 9pm (0300 to 2100), not 3am to 11pm (0300 to 2300) as claimed.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#83

Post by ogre_codes »

Thorrez wrote: post #40
ogre_codes wrote: post #3

I try to keep my sleep schedule so I wake up shortly after daybreak for exactly this reason. I love natural light and loath sleeping through it. I've considered writing an app that sets an alarm to sunset and a reminder 9 hours prior to sunset so I can always wake with the sun and have plenty of sleep. Should be pretty simple I just haven't gotten around to it. (Though personally, I'd prefer it were a personal choice…

The problem is stores need to open at some specific time, and thus need employees to start work at that specific time. Adjusting either of those based on the sunrise every day wouldn't be very practical.

If everyone did it, it would work fine.

Business hours : 1 hour after sunrise until 10 hours after sunrise.

Even without that, many of us have flexible hours and can either start work earlier, or just do something before work when we have time. Waking up early in the summer means you can catch a bike ride or take a short run or hike before work. Since it's too hot in the afternoon/ evening this works quite well for much of the country.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#84

Post by swiley »

hourislate wrote: post #58
User23 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually happened in the ‘70s and it sucked so hard it got repealed in less than a year[1]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight...

That article was funny. Business owners complaining they have to open up in the predawn? How does SBUX do it? The one down the street opens at 5 am. Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want bankers hours? And schools having to open 30 minutes later, Imagine we give the kids 30 more minutes of sleep in the am. These days they are like factory workers waking up at 6 am to ride the bus and get…

I never had to deal with any of this because I was homeschooled but every time I hear about the way public schooled kids are treated it sounds like abuse.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#85

Post by tzs »

hourislate wrote: post #23

I would vote for any Presidential Candidate and House Representative regardless of party on the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. That's all they would have to do to get my vote....nothing else.

An issue with year around DST is that at latitudes were there isn't enough daylight to have both the morning commute and the evening commute in daylight it is generally better to have the morning commute be the one that gets the light based upon both weather and volume.

First, weather. In the cold months, when you have to worry about icy roads and fog, the worst time for those is in the morning. The coldest time of day is usually right around sunrise. A morning commute in darkness, or even shortly after sunrise, is before the ice has melted and the fog has cleared.

The evening commute comes after a day where the sun has been warming things. It is much more likely that the road conditions will be better by then.

Second, volume. People tend to head out to work or school or their first outside of the day during a narrower range of hours than when they come home.

A morning darkness commute then ends up combining the worst road conditions of the day with the most people on the roads. The evening commute usually has better road conditions and is spread out over more hours so traffic isn't as dense.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#86

Post by dahart »

rhino369 wrote: post #71
quicklime wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, and I've also thought about writing the same app. I've always wondered why our system of time is built around the point of "midnight", when what we really care about is "sunrise". DST is an ugly hack that we use on top of our midnight-based time system to roughly approximate a constant sunrise time. Imagine if 00:00 was defined as the time that the sun rises. You could set your alarm to 00:00 and start wor…

Our system was originally based on noon, not midnight. I don't think most people really care about sunrise. Humans don't seem to naturally rise with the sun. I don't know anyone who plans their day based on when the sun rose. You'd have 3+ hour swings in what time meant from December to June. Seems worse than even daylight savings time.

> Humans don't seem to naturally rise with the sun.

Ever been camping for more than a day or two? Rising by the sun happens pretty naturally and quickly.

Endless artificial light is a very recent invention. What do you think life was like before electricity?

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#87

Post by Thorrez »

ogre_codes wrote: post #83
Thorrez wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is stores need to open at some specific time, and thus need employees to start work at that specific time. Adjusting either of those based on the sunrise every day wouldn't be very practical.

If everyone did it, it would work fine. Business hours : 1 hour after sunrise until 10 hours after sunrise. Even without that, many of us have flexible hours and can either start work earlier, or just do something before work when we have time. Waking up early in the summer means you can catch a bike ride or take a short run or hike before work. Since it's too hot in the afternoon/ evening this works quite well for m…

Yeah, but it's not possible for everyone to do it, because sunrise changes depending on both your latitude and longitude. Some places the sun never sets and rises for months at a time. We interact with businesses that aren't close to us.

For those who are just doing it on their own, I think DST actually helps them. The government creates a very rough movement following sunrise, and you can use personal adjustments to zero in on the exact sunrise time.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#88

Post by dahart »

hourislate wrote: post #23

I would vote for any Presidential Candidate and House Representative regardless of party on the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. That's all they would have to do to get my vote....nothing else.

I’d love to hear more about why this issue is more important to you than any other reason to vote. Is the time shift causing you serious problems, or do you have a business that is hurt by it, or anything like that?

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#89

Post by Ekaros »

ogre_codes wrote: post #83
Thorrez wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is stores need to open at some specific time, and thus need employees to start work at that specific time. Adjusting either of those based on the sunrise every day wouldn't be very practical.

If everyone did it, it would work fine. Business hours : 1 hour after sunrise until 10 hours after sunrise. Even without that, many of us have flexible hours and can either start work earlier, or just do something before work when we have time. Waking up early in the summer means you can catch a bike ride or take a short run or hike before work. Since it's too hot in the afternoon/ evening this works quite well for m…

It would be massive mess. Unless we tie large regions to some specific point. Entire idea of timezones was to get rid off local times. Bringing them back would just cause more issues specially in current world with all the electronic communications we do.

The time when sunrises changes both when travelling west to east and south to north... Not to even mention being beyond artic circle. Where sun never rises or sets at least on some days...

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#90

Post by derefr »

hourislate wrote: post #58
User23 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually happened in the ‘70s and it sucked so hard it got repealed in less than a year[1]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight...

That article was funny. Business owners complaining they have to open up in the predawn? How does SBUX do it? The one down the street opens at 5 am. Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want bankers hours? And schools having to open 30 minutes later, Imagine we give the kids 30 more minutes of sleep in the am. These days they are like factory workers waking up at 6 am to ride the bus and get…

> Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want, bankers hours?

Presumably, they want their schedule moved around so they can see what they're doing. There's no reason that the clock itself needs to change for that, though. Just unions forcing employers into a "9-5 in summer, 10-6 in winter" schedule would work fine.

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