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The Waste of Daylight

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Re: The Waste of Daylight

#61

Post by throw_away »

quicklime wrote: post #15
ogre_codes wrote: post #3

I try to keep my sleep schedule so I wake up shortly after daybreak for exactly this reason. I love natural light and loath sleeping through it. I've considered writing an app that sets an alarm to sunset and a reminder 9 hours prior to sunset so I can always wake with the sun and have plenty of sleep. Should be pretty simple I just haven't gotten around to it. (Though personally, I'd prefer it were a personal choice…

Same here, and I've also thought about writing the same app. I've always wondered why our system of time is built around the point of "midnight", when what we really care about is "sunrise". DST is an ugly hack that we use on top of our midnight-based time system to roughly approximate a constant sunrise time. Imagine if 00:00 was defined as the time that the sun rises. You could set your alarm to 00:00 and start wor…

IIRC, this is also how time is kept in some equatorial regions, as their days are consistently the same length year-round. Starting one 12 hour cycle at daybreak and another at sunset made the most sense.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#62

Post by bronson »

gweinberg wrote: post #16
chrishas35 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is a compromise to be had here... a one-time 30 minute change, and we’re done. There is strong consensus to eliminate the time change, but which time to choose as permanent seems quite divided. Compromise and let’s move on.

There absolutely is not. Most people agree that extra sunlight in the afternoon is more useful than in the morning.

You haven’t heard from parents whose kids would be walking to school in the dark? They’re very persistent.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#63

Post by Rule35 »

wyattpeak wrote: post #37
pxeboot wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like we have a national school schedule. There are already 1-2 hour differences in school start times, sometimes just a few miles away.

The issue isn't universality but consistency. It doesn't matter to person A how person B gets their kids to school, what matters is that person A doesn't need a different system for half the year.

So everyone in the world changing their clocks is easier than having a summer schedule at a business where they open one hour earlier?

Many businesses have different schedules on the weekend, I think people could cope with summer hours. Especially since they already do - even with the time change many businesses are open longer.

For something so unpopular, how do places that don't do the time change get by? Why isn't Saskatchewan in a permanent rage-fueled civil war?

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#64

Post by Thorrez »

shmerl wrote: post #57
Thorrez wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adjusting your entire schedule (commute, job, child care, school, bedtime, alarm time, meal times) twice a year is much much more disruptive than changing your clocks twice a year.

I'd say the opposite. Adjusting the clock is more disruptive, because your schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles. But besides that you also mess up the clock. So it's better to leave the clock alone and to adjust your schedule if you need to.

>schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about calling into work saying you need a schedule change to work around your kid's new school schedule. Calling your daycare provider to setup a new schedule. If you take public transport, finding how the timetables will work with your new schedule. If you plan doctor's appointments in the future, you now need to take into account time of year to know when your and your kid's availabilities are. None of that happens when everyone changes their clocks.

When you mess up the clock currently no schedules need to change (except the people who are working at 2am, which is not very many).

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#65

Post by Rule35 »

Thorrez wrote: post #43
eucryphia wrote: post #17

City people could just get up an hour earlier in summer.

Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Does that mean you also go to bed 1 hour earlier in the summer? If you go to bed earlier, you have less evening time to enjoy. Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive.

> Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive.

Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree.

> Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer?

Voluntarily. If they like mornings, yes. If they like evenings, then no.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#66

Post by shmerl »

Thorrez wrote: post #64
shmerl wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the opposite. Adjusting the clock is more disruptive, because your schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles. But besides that you also mess up the clock. So it's better to leave the clock alone and to adjust your schedule if you need to.

>schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about calling into work saying you need a schedule change to work around your kid's new school schedule. Calling your daycare provider to setup a new schedule. If you take public transport, finding how the timetables will work with your new schedule. If you plan doctor's appointments in the future, you now need t…

All this is a mess due to DST anyway (like system bugs and so on). So it's much better without the switch.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#67

Post by axaxs »

didibus wrote: post #46
echelon wrote: post #7

For those that want to make a permanent change, let's stop talking about "DST". That's too confusing for a lot of people, and results in many favoring the wrong outcome. We should instead ask people if they want "summertime" or "wintertime" sunrise and sunset. Wintertime proponents use the animosity against the time change to argue against DST, but they seldom mention this means an earlier sunset. This comes down to…

> but they seldom mention this means an earlier sunset I thought normal time meant a later sunset and later sunrise in the winter. That's why DST was enacted no? So that in the winter the sun rises earlier and sets earlier? Anyways my preference would be for later sunrise and sunset, so that more of the day can be enjoyed around work. Which I think means staying on standard time the whole year.

You've got it backwards, DST is later sunrises and sunsets.

I can't be bothered to research it, but was always told as a kid the naming was for longer daylight hours after school, so the kids could help farm.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#68

Post by Thorrez »

Rule35 wrote: post #65
Thorrez wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Does that mean you also go to bed 1 hour earlier in the summer? If you go to bed earlier, you have less evening time to enjoy. Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive.

> Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive. Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree. > Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Voluntarily. If they like mornings, yes. If they like evenings, then no.

>Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree.

I think we actually disagree. We're using different definitions of "adjusting". I'm using it as in change from getting up at 7am instead of 8am. This is very disruptive because you have to reschedule your work shifts, your kid's school time, your commute (e.g public transport), your kid's daycare, doctor's appointments, bedtime, TV watching schedule, evening activities, etc.

If you and everyone else shift everything, then no one needs to contact each other to figure out how the rescheduling will work out. It all happens without requiring any communication. If x people interact with each other, then personal shifts might require x^2 interactions to try to figure out their new schedules. If it's set by the government, it requires 0 interactions.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#69

Post by tptacek »

Rule35 wrote: post #63
wyattpeak wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't universality but consistency. It doesn't matter to person A how person B gets their kids to school, what matters is that person A doesn't need a different system for half the year.

So everyone in the world changing their clocks is easier than having a summer schedule at a business where they open one hour earlier? Many businesses have different schedules on the weekend, I think people could cope with summer hours. Especially since they already do - even with the time change many businesses are open longer. For something so unpopular, how do places that don't do the time change get by? Why isn't…

So everyone in the world changing their clocks is easier than having a summer schedule at a business where they open one hour earlier?

Yes.

Re: The Waste of Daylight

#70

Post by Thorrez »

shmerl wrote: post #66
Thorrez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about calling into work saying you need a schedule change to work around your kid's new school schedule. Calling your daycare provider to setup a new schedule. If you take public transport, finding how the timetables will work with your new schedule. If you plan doctor's appointments in the future, you now need t…

All this is a mess due to DST anyway (like system bugs and so on). So it's much better without the switch.

I disagree that DST is as bad as personal rescheduling. People aren't currently having to reschedule work, school, daycare, etc, twice a year.

Yes there are some problems, but they don't end up in disagreements like "sorry, I can't let you adjust your shift" or "sorry, this daycare doesn't have those hours, you'll have to find a new daycare" or "sorry, this bus only operates at these times".

Now I'm not saying removing DST is actually that bad. We could remove DST without expecting people to reschedule everything. We would lose daylight during some periods of time, gain it in others, that's it.

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