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A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

nature.com

131–136 of 136 posts

Re: A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People throw around "debunked" like it's final. In reality, it's just a lazy dismissal without substance. You want to say he's wrong about something, say what it is and give a reason. Otherwise you're just avoiding actual critical thought. (Also, I have no idea who Peter Turchin is. I just don't like it when people inflict their defective thinking on others.)

The short of it: Turchin advocates for a field of 'cliodynamics' which tries to apply math to meaningfully describe and predict social trends, especially large ones such as collapse. His own description from a decade ago: https://www.nature.com/articles/454034a A large project he directs and uses to study this: http://seshatdatabank.info/seshat-about-us/ And has produced some interesting descriptive work such as: htt…

>> The short of it: Turchin advocates for a field of 'cliodynamics' which tries to apply math to meaningfully describe and predict social trends, especially large ones such as collapse.

I seem to remember that cliodynamics is really Asimov's psychohistory, but pursued in ernest, no?

Re: A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

#132
post #69
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, almost all of the work of Greek philosophers and their science and philosophy achievements were in Catholic Europe completely forgotten and actively censored for centuries. Fantastic Roman infrastructure, aqueducts, running water inside the multi-storey buildings and huge sewage systems were completely neglected - people completely lost the Antic ideas of hygiene - resulting in horrible sanitary conditions as n…

> Well, almost all of the work of Greek philosophers and their science and philosophy achievements were in Catholic Europe completely forgotten and actively censored for centuries. While less available they were still known and studied and certainly not censored. Neo-Platonist and Aristotelian thought was very influential in the Post-Antiquity and Early-Medieval time periods: see the Desert Fathers and the Scholastic…

> Religious fanaticism I won't bother talking about

How would you characterize things like Children's crusades (and Crusades in general), Holy Inquisition, hard prosecution of every other religion and even other Christian fractions like e.g. Cathars?

And let's keep Byzantine out of this, I was talking about West specifically. West which experienced a significant population decline, wars, plagues, and which between 1st and 10th century produced very little of anything new. No big science discoveries, very limited architecture pieces - almost all churches, the (single) religion becoming the absolute focus of any artistic and cultural life. The remaining books and educated people were forced into self-censorship, as many philosophical ideas were considered as blasphemes, and Church positioned itself as one and only gatekeeper to knowledge.

If it was like you're claiming then West Europeans wouldn't need Arabic books to learn about ancient Greece achievements (as they had), and there wouldn't be an explosion of culture and education and book production as it was after fall of Cordoba and Toledo back into the hands of Christians. Arabic library of Cordoba is claimed to have had 400 thousands books, which was estimated to be more than what the whole Western Europe had at the time. In just a few decades the number of books in Europe multiplied many times, first Universities started to be created, things started moving. Just look at the dates when the first Universities were created in Europe: Bologna and Oxford 11th century, Paris and Salamanca 12th century, etc. It's not coincidence, they regained access to the Ancient sources that were lost before and that put them back in the saddle. If all the knowledge was preserved and readily available all the time as you've claimed, this peak would never be that drastic. And also there wouldn't be "a lack of historical records" if people were writing down the facts more - instead of concentrating on religious discussions.

And yes, Francesco Petrarca was the first known to use the term Dark Ages, and he specifically meant that because of the lack of great works and authors of the Classical period. But he wasn't talking about "the fewer historical records" - he freaking lived in that time and was talking about his own feelings that the culture of his time sucks. And great that he did, because he helped change that later.

And the term certainly wasn't used only by him, and not only in that context.

Re: A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

#133
post #73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, almost all of the work of Greek philosophers and their science and philosophy achievements were in Catholic Europe completely forgotten and actively censored for centuries. While less available they were still known and studied and certainly not censored. Neo-Platonist and Aristotelian thought was very influential in the Post-Antiquity and Early-Medieval time periods: see the Desert Fathers and the Scholastic…

You’re not arguing against a competing view of history. You are arguing against an ideology. Save your breath. This is their view of history: Ancient Rome was enlightened. Then Christianity destroyed all the worlds great accomplishments. Then, Galileo showed everyone who was boss. Oh yeah... a corollary to this version: Islam was as nearly enlightened as Rome and would have ushered in an age of elegant sophistication…

And you're not arguing for whitewashing of Christian history?

Re: A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The short of it: Turchin advocates for a field of 'cliodynamics' which tries to apply math to meaningfully describe and predict social trends, especially large ones such as collapse. His own description from a decade ago: https://www.nature.com/articles/454034a A large project he directs and uses to study this: http://seshatdatabank.info/seshat-about-us/ And has produced some interesting descriptive work such as: htt…

>> The short of it: Turchin advocates for a field of 'cliodynamics' which tries to apply math to meaningfully describe and predict social trends, especially large ones such as collapse. I seem to remember that cliodynamics is really Asimov's psychohistory, but pursued in ernest, no?

Pretty much, he wrote an article comparing the two a while ago.

http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/psychohistory-and-cliod...

Re: A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

#135
post #73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, almost all of the work of Greek philosophers and their science and philosophy achievements were in Catholic Europe completely forgotten and actively censored for centuries. While less available they were still known and studied and certainly not censored. Neo-Platonist and Aristotelian thought was very influential in the Post-Antiquity and Early-Medieval time periods: see the Desert Fathers and the Scholastic…

You’re not arguing against a competing view of history. You are arguing against an ideology. Save your breath. This is their view of history: Ancient Rome was enlightened. Then Christianity destroyed all the worlds great accomplishments. Then, Galileo showed everyone who was boss. Oh yeah... a corollary to this version: Islam was as nearly enlightened as Rome and would have ushered in an age of elegant sophistication…

Please don't post ideological flamewar comments to HN. They're tedious and not what this site is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A Model of the Cosmos in the Ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. A lot of trash plastic degrades over long periods of time. They might find the plumbing (which is a type of plastic that lasts longer), but that isn't trash in general.

How long will PVC pipes last? 1000 years is a long time.

I don't know. A lot depends on how they are. UV is the main degrader of plastics in general (but I'm not sure about PVC in particular), but in walls or the ground that isn't a problem. PVC is often used for vent pipes where it is allowed through the roof with no treatment - but failures in this application are not a disaster (no pressure). HDEP (black water pipe - not to be confused with ABS which is sometimes used for drains) pipe has a history of 50 years in the ground with no sign of failure. PEX is expected to last 100 years in a building, but in one month of sun exposure is enough to make it no longer able to hold water pressure.

I've named 3 types of plastic, you can't apply a blanket statement about any of them that applies to the rest.

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