Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Overview of Early Electric Cars

lowtechmagazine.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 106 posts

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#91

Post by rini17 »

swiley wrote: post #90
mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Where I live I'm pretty sure all the electrical power comes from natural gas turbines. So EVs pollute just like regular cars. There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.

Do they indeed? The turbines usually have much better exhaust filtration and have higher efficiency than oil refinery+ICE.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#92

Post by rini17 »

Hypx wrote: post #75
Gibbon1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think fuel cells window of opportunity is closing fast and they have no traction despite a lot of investment. EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also going away due to mass manufacturing improvements. Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an external outle…

You can't build a "lead" as if this was a race. For one thing, there's no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from having their own technology revolution and a S-curve like adoption curve that displaces everything else. This could happen ever after EVs "win" over internal combustion so to speak. It's fully possible that EVs are still on-track to being replaced no matter what happens next. The other t…

There is still a hard limit to hydrogen energy density that is likely to never be crossed. And safe consumer-friendly handling of pure hydrogen is much more expensive than electricity, that also stems from physical limitations. These limitations are being hit now. On the other side, batteries and chargers did not hit their hard physical limitations yet. Supercapacitors exchanging many megawatts of energy over superconductive wires are feasible.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#93

Post by Hypx »

rini17 wrote: post #92
Hypx wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't build a "lead" as if this was a race. For one thing, there's no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from having their own technology revolution and a S-curve like adoption curve that displaces everything else. This could happen ever after EVs "win" over internal combustion so to speak. It's fully possible that EVs are still on-track to being replaced no matter what happens next. The other t…

There is still a hard limit to hydrogen energy density that is likely to never be crossed. And safe consumer-friendly handling of pure hydrogen is much more expensive than electricity, that also stems from physical limitations. These limitations are being hit now. On the other side, batteries and chargers did not hit their hard physical limitations yet. Supercapacitors exchanging many megawatts of energy over superco…

Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg. That's rarely going to the limiting factor. The physical limitations are nearly the same as natural gas, which is to say they are easily solvable. Superconducting wires will have their own major issues that are a long ways away from being solved.

In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone. In particular, you've ignored the limits on battery energy density which will likely limit battery powered cars to either expensive luxury cars or short-ranged urban cars.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#94

Post by erik_seaberg »

Robotbeat wrote: post #85
erik_seaberg wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it hard to find one with a garage rather than street parking? They don’t seem to offer a search filter for that.

Each time I've just parked in a driveway and ran a cord to an external outlet. BTW, 63% of US housing units have a garage or a carport. That doesn't even count those that have just a driveway. I have a garage, but I solely park and charge outside (my garage is my COVID work-from-home office space away from the kids...). In a place that experiences 4 seasons.

I’m a little dubious about that stat. I’ve had a carport space, but it had no power and was hundreds of yards away from my (upstairs) apartment. It’s not an impossible problem but it’ll take a ton of installations approved by property managers and that work has barely started.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#95

Post by rini17 »

Hypx wrote: post #93
rini17 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still a hard limit to hydrogen energy density that is likely to never be crossed. And safe consumer-friendly handling of pure hydrogen is much more expensive than electricity, that also stems from physical limitations. These limitations are being hit now. On the other side, batteries and chargers did not hit their hard physical limitations yet. Supercapacitors exchanging many megawatts of energy over superco…

Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg. That's rarely going to the limiting factor. The physical limitations are nearly the same as natural gas, which is to say they are easily solvable. Superconducting wires will have their own major issues that are a long ways away from being solved. In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from be…

You conveniently omitted the storage vessel factor from the energy density. And it's definitely not comparable to natural gas in other respects too, such as hydrogen is corrosive and needs special alloys or nonmetal materials.

Superconducing wires are already and increasingly used in practice. Even without superconductors we can just keep raising the voltage and use copper, there are new silicon carbide power transistors that make it possible. We aren't near physical limit yet.

Other assertions of yours are likewise unfounded, too.

I can totally see hydrogen airplanes but for cars it's too little too late.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#96

Post by Gibbon1 »

Hypx wrote: post #93
rini17 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still a hard limit to hydrogen energy density that is likely to never be crossed. And safe consumer-friendly handling of pure hydrogen is much more expensive than electricity, that also stems from physical limitations. These limitations are being hit now. On the other side, batteries and chargers did not hit their hard physical limitations yet. Supercapacitors exchanging many megawatts of energy over superco…

Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg. That's rarely going to the limiting factor. The physical limitations are nearly the same as natural gas, which is to say they are easily solvable. Superconducting wires will have their own major issues that are a long ways away from being solved. In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from be…

> Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg

Lithium's energy density is 11,600 Wh/kg.

> In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone

I can buy a battery powered vehicle today. Seriously it's 5pm on a Sunday. However the dealer is open till 7pm and they have a couple of dozen Chevy Bolts on the lot.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#97

Post by Hypx »

rini17 wrote: post #95
Hypx wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg. That's rarely going to the limiting factor. The physical limitations are nearly the same as natural gas, which is to say they are easily solvable. Superconducting wires will have their own major issues that are a long ways away from being solved. In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from be…

You conveniently omitted the storage vessel factor from the energy density. And it's definitely not comparable to natural gas in other respects too, such as hydrogen is corrosive and needs special alloys or nonmetal materials. Superconducing wires are already and increasingly used in practice. Even without superconductors we can just keep raising the voltage and use copper, there are new silicon carbide power transis…

From a theoretical standpoint, you don't need to worry about that. You can conceive of metal hydrides or other forms of dense hydrogen storage. Even as LH₂, you're still looking at around 2700 Wh/L of energy. That's well beyond any known rechargeable battery.

And the "special alloys" really just mean certain types of steel alloy, and "nonmetal materials" really mean certain types of plastics. This is not a big challenge.

You still need very low temperatures and exotic materials for superconducting cables. Not to mention the power generation needed to sustain that level of power draw. This is a long-term problem that we're nowhere near solving.

As I said before, this is not a race and there is no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from displacing EVs at an arbitrary point in the future.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#98

Post by Hypx »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #96
Hypx wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg. That's rarely going to the limiting factor. The physical limitations are nearly the same as natural gas, which is to say they are easily solvable. Superconducting wires will have their own major issues that are a long ways away from being solved. In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from be…

> Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg Lithium's energy density is 11,600 Wh/kg. > In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone I can buy a battery powered vehicle today. Seriously it's 5pm on a Sunday. However the dealer is open till 7pm and they have a couple of dozen Chevy Bolts on the lot.

That's much lower than hydrogen. So what was the argument here?

You can buy a fuel cell car today too. I've notice that many of you guys are stuck in 2010 or so. Fuel cells cars are far beyond your outdated viewpoints.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#99

Post by perilunar »

fy20 wrote: post #39

Does anyone have any reading material on the history of control systems of electric vehicles? Today most EVs use AC motors with a inverter - a bunch of power transistors - that convert DC to AC, adjusting the frequency as required by the motor (that's what the hum you hear is). However obviously that wasn't the case 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago when electric (trolley) buses were still used in many parts of the…

DC motors driven directly from the battery, probably with a large wire-wound rheostat to control the power. Many cars had voltmeters and ammeters for the driver.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#100

Post by [deleted] »

sidpatil wrote: post #73
Robotbeat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need outlets in apartment parking lots (they already have light poles, and block heater outlets are common in northern areas) and off-street parking. It’s pretty cheap to just add outlets.

Assuming that the existing wiring can support the increased demand.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN