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An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

m.dw.com

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Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#111
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it particularly noteworthy that an anti nuclear article was written by an anti nuclear author or am I missing something?

Yes, as it establishes the potential bias of the article author. If this article was written by typically a pro-nuclear author it would be much more noteworthy.

That was the idea behind this nuclear industry PR piece from a few weeks ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26213984

Predictably, it didn't bring up the costs (though of course the first comment on HN did) but it tried to play the "environmentalist who has seen the light" angle pretty hard.

It's actually kind of weird how many articles like this do get submitted to hacker news. Link says "it's safe & making a comeback", comments say "it's just not economic and no" <- this has happened quite a few times.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, blackouts are cheaper than electricity. Texas has demonstrated that you can have blackouts and expensive at the same time if only you cut enough regulations. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/how-and-why...

Funny, everyone was happy about how Texas scrapped so many coal plants and built so many windmills until it reached a cascade failure point and then the narrative shifted to "OMG, look at all the deregulation!"

Texas had no power because they forgot everything they learnt the hard way from their "once-in-a-decade snow storm" they had 2011.

Coal piles freezing solid because there is no roof, gas valves impossible to operate because nobody would put a box around them, no water too cool reactor cores because the pipes froze: these are not failures somehow cascading from the fact they build some windmills.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#113
post #87
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity in France is so cheap that EDF has had to raise domestic electricity prices in order to make it possible for other providers to compete

They're good until 2030 and then they're all going to start aging out at more or less the same time. Nuclear power is extraordinarily capital intensive but fairly reasonably priced to run once it's built. This also creates a strong incentive to run plants beyond their operating lifetime, which France may do. That takes us into exciting new territory safety-wise.

And then it becomes comes time to dismantle them, and they turn capital intensive again.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#114
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a truck full of solar panels crashes on the highway, that highway doesn’t become a superfund site. It doesn’t cost hundreds of millions to clean up, the local community doesn’t see a massive spike in cancer. You cannot say the same about nuclear waste.

>If a truck full of solar panels crashes on the highway, that highway doesn’t become a superfund site. It doesn’t cost hundreds of millions to clean up, the local community doesn’t see a massive spike in cancer. >You cannot say the same about nuclear waste. Sure you can. Look-up transport casks.

An account of the 1984 test: https://www.railmagazine.com/trains/heritage/it-s-a-lovely-d...

And the BBC Six O'clock News report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo22l4wJdx8

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#115

Wow, what a simplistic look at nuclear vs renewables. They don't even begin to look into the "hidden" costs of renewable energy. They fail to mention or include the costs of new transmissions lines, bringing new mines onboard, building grid storage, etc. If we forgo nuclear power the only other currently viable carbon free, stable, energy source is hydro power, which has huge environmental costs and immense public re…

What about the hidden cost of nuclear? The waste storage. The security measures (can't have terrorists walking off with the nuclear waste). The constant need for inspections, audits, etc. And that's before you consider the corruption and the gravy train that is basically associated with funding existing plants using massive amounts of public funding. Nuclear being too expensive is the main point of this article. That…

> What about the hidden cost of nuclear? The waste storage. The security measures (can't have terrorists walking off with the nuclear waste). The constant need for inspections, audits, etc. And that's before you consider the corruption and the gravy train that is basically associated with funding existing plants using massive amounts of public funding.

Nothing wrong with pointing out issues/costs with nuclear, in fact it's good to point out the issues with nuclear so it can be properly weighed. I'm just trying to point out issues/costs of only using renewables, so we can weigh those as well.

> Nuclear being too expensive is the main point of this article. That seems upsetting to a lot of nuclear proponents. But I don't see a lot of arguments to counter that core point.

I think your missing the point. If you ran your entire grid on just solar and wind, no nuclear, or coal or natural gas peaker plants, you'll find that wind and solar is no longer cheap, and is much less resilient to exceptional circumstances.

> I don't get your argument about mining.

My point about mining is, our current course to fighting climate change relies entirely on mining, were making the switch from the Oil and Gas industry to the Mining industry for our energy and transportation markets. This change is going to have huge impacts on the world, mines are quite capable polluters of the local environment, setting up mines in developed countries can take a decade or more, which is the same problem nuclear plants face. Mining is also quite controversial for many good reasons, so there is significant push back from locals and environmental groups whenever and wherever a mine is proposed. All of this means a huge portion on mining takes places in countries with lax environmental and or human rights standards, which just exacerbates the problems.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, blackouts are cheaper than electricity. Texas has demonstrated that you can have blackouts and expensive at the same time if only you cut enough regulations. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/how-and-why...

Funny, everyone was happy about how Texas scrapped so many coal plants and built so many windmills until it reached a cascade failure point and then the narrative shifted to "OMG, look at all the deregulation!"

It was also... amusing watching capacity payments suddenly cease to be an evil subsidy to big coal and become an essential part of competent grid operations that Texas stupidly didn't have because they're right-wing libertarian nutjobs that think the free market solves everything. And by amusing I mean we're all fucked.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, blackouts are cheaper than electricity. Texas has demonstrated that you can have blackouts and expensive at the same time if only you cut enough regulations. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/how-and-why...

Funny, everyone was happy about how Texas scrapped so many coal plants and built so many windmills until it reached a cascade failure point and then the narrative shifted to "OMG, look at all the deregulation!"

Every power source failed in Texas.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#119
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we’re trying to be honest here, that’s not an appropriate comparison. Properly disposed-of nuclear waste doesn’t necessarily cause these problems either. When you look at the physical footprint disparities (land-clearing) needed for commensurate solar power generation, rendering such land unusable and ecologically disrupted/destroyed, solar doesn’t come out smelling like roses these days either. If you’re lucky it…

Since you’re going to go there, let’s add in the damage from all the iron, that limestone and uranian required to build the nuclear plant? Also quite damaging. Photovoltaics, not the best. Now what about mirrors pointing at concrete towers moving liquid sodium around, like in Spain, or pointed at steel pipes filled with water. The pro-nuclear crowd have two things in common: 1. They have more faith in humanity than w…

I’m for a full accounting of all of it. Maybe we can agree all power generation for an industrialized world comes with enormous cost and trade-offs.

Where does that leave us? You need to supplement renewables with something. Your options seem like fossil fuels or nuclear right now. That’s what this all comes down to - the load factor of renewables sucks for most of the world, storage tech isn’t suitable for the demand that would be placed on it, nor will it be for the foreseeable future barring a miracle. So one either ends up saying that we’ll hold out using fossil fuels to augment the I literally just don’t see any options with a lower carbon footprint to meet demand in a highly reliable manner, though I would love a miracle energy generating technology to magically appear that could let us avoid nuclear.

Re: An argument that nuclear power makes the climate crisis worse

#120
The premise is fallacious on several levels. Nuclear power and renewables are a dichotomy even if one is better for stable baseload power and the other lower in kWhr cost. France isn't going to give up MAD just because renewables are cheaper - it is still a budget synergy since they will have reactors anyway. No country has or will go 100% CO2 reduction focus. The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good.
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