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Linux is Not Windows

linux.oneandoneis2.org

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

#31

Post by anonymoushn »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #29
anonymoushn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the desktop OSes I use suck. On Linux, I can't even use X + Awesome + without huge amounts of tearing and nearly 1 second delays while the WM redraws my terminal emulators while switching virtual desktops. A more experienced friend of mine suggested that this could be due to using nvidia binary graphics drivers, so I tried out the open source ones, but the tearing and delays got worse, and occasionally an enti…

Wait. You're using the nvidia driver, but are you using an accelerated window manager. Are you using mutter? Are you using compiz? Ubuntu's 11.04 compiz is unstable, don't let me deceive you. BUT, it is far superior to plain old metacity with nvidia. Ugh, that shit tears and is awful.

I'm using Awesome. http://awesome.naquadah.org/

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#32

Post by Luyt »

anonymoushn wrote: post #28
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #10

The problem that I continue to see is, people have this image of Linux and the "Linux Desktop". That image, that tons of "hacker" types that love OS X seem to have, hasn't changed in years and is extremely out of date. I hear people talk about problems or applications that haven't been standard linux fair for years now, but they haven't tried it and by-golly they're unbelievably attached to those memories they have o…

All of the desktop OSes I use suck. On Linux, I can't even use X + Awesome + without huge amounts of tearing and nearly 1 second delays while the WM redraws my terminal emulators while switching virtual desktops. A more experienced friend of mine suggested that this could be due to using nvidia binary graphics drivers, so I tried out the open source ones, but the tearing and delays got worse, and occasionally an enti…

"I have since put Activity Monitor in my dock just in case"

Alternatively, you could right click on the Finder icon in the dock, choose 'New Finder Window' from the menu. From there you can go to the Applications / Utilities folder, and launch Activity Monitor from there.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#33

Post by eropple »

djd wrote: post #14
j_baker wrote: post #2

You know, to a certain extent, unfriendliness is what I like about Linux. I like "friendly" systems for browsing the web, email, and watching video. But for hacking, Linux simply can't be beat. I really don't see why Linux needs to be an OS for Joe Internet User. What's wrong with Linux being a server/development OS?

The reason Linux seems to be un friendly is because windows takes care you as a baby,most of the time you are not in control and there is nothing much to worry. So if kids where exposed to Linux first this problem would not arise IMHO

Alternatively, Windows takes care of things that a normal person has no need to, but Linux forces you to do.

It's like being forced to think about breathing.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#34

Post by drivebyacct2 »

anonymoushn wrote: post #31
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait. You're using the nvidia driver, but are you using an accelerated window manager. Are you using mutter? Are you using compiz? Ubuntu's 11.04 compiz is unstable, don't let me deceive you. BUT, it is far superior to plain old metacity with nvidia. Ugh, that shit tears and is awful.

I'm using Awesome. http://awesome.naquadah.org/

The thing is, the composited window managers? They're actually smoother than without due to the graphics cards. Even with minimal features (for more stability, since ahem, shipping versions of compiz aren't always crazy stable, despite how much I admire where compiz is going).

Take the time to try a composited window manager. While you're at it, install vlc, and make sure you manually tell it to "Use Hardware Acceleration". It's amazing how small things can really show you the ability of Linux.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#35

Post by gamble »

afy wrote: post #16

The problems that the article addresses are not the ones that I would have chosen. I think the main problem that new users to Linux have is the steep learning curve. The author dismisses user friendliness with the implication that the only reason Linux is difficult to learn is because it is different. The analogy given is vi versus a standard Windows word processor. I am not disputing that vi is a much more powerful…

Desktop Linux doesn't have a learning curve; it has a learning cliff.

Linux cribs so much from other operating systems that it's reasonably familiar and easy to use when you first sit down, but the problems start when you need to go beyond using it as a dumb terminal: perhaps you need to set up a printer, or there's an issue with networking or power management. Now you're over the cliff. It can be a nightmare for a engineer like myself to fix problems, even though I've been using Linux since the mid-90s. An unsophisticated user would be finished.

An anecdote: I'm mainly an OSX user now, but I bought an eeePC netbook a couple of years ago for travel and tried to install the then-current version of Ubuntu. This was literally one of the most popular laptops on the market, and Ubuntu installed without a functional network device. Getting it working was not easy, involving a couple of reinstallations. Even then, power management was nonfunctional and the netbook got half the battery life as it did under Windows.

The real problem with desktop Linux isn't that it's hard to use or different; it's that the average user can expect to struggle with crippling bugs and hardware incompatibilities that are a nightmare to fix.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#36

Post by jrockway »

cookiecaper wrote: post #26
fleitz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have. Linux solves a whole host of problems that developers have very well, and does a very poor job of solving the problems that most people have. If you tally up a list of possible problems someone might encounter in their entire computing use Linux will definitely solve far more intuitively than Windows, however, when tally up a list of possib…

>Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have. I'm just going to address this point right here. Almost all normal people I know would really appreciate being able to get internet in any variety of locales where they'd otherwise have to wrangle with stupid WiFi login screens and money portals or where even crappy commercial WiFi is unavailable (park?). The thing is that most people just…

If the "normal person" is incidentally using Ubuntu and Cyanogenmod, all we have to do is plug the phone in via USB, turn on tethering on the phone, click "HTC Android Phone" on "the two computers on the screen" (nm-applet), and that's that.

This hasn't been my experience. Mine is similar, except you don't even have to click anything: the usb network device is detected, and network-manager immediately attempts to get an IP address. Then you're online.

There is no way it could possibly be easier.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#37

Post by jrockway »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #34
anonymoushn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using Awesome. http://awesome.naquadah.org/

The thing is, the composited window managers? They're actually smoother than without due to the graphics cards. Even with minimal features (for more stability, since ahem, shipping versions of compiz aren't always crazy stable, despite how much I admire where compiz is going). Take the time to try a composited window manager. While you're at it, install vlc, and make sure you manually tell it to "Use Hardware Acceler…

Most people that use window managers like Awesome have no need for a composited window manager. Yes, they make window moving smoother, but you don't move windows in Awesome, so it's just a waste of resources.

Similarly, I use VDPAU output for mplayer and full-screen it, taking the window manager and compositing manager out of the equation entirely.

Not everyone wants OS-X-style eye candy.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#38

Post by jrockway »

gamble wrote: post #35
afy wrote: post #16

The problems that the article addresses are not the ones that I would have chosen. I think the main problem that new users to Linux have is the steep learning curve. The author dismisses user friendliness with the implication that the only reason Linux is difficult to learn is because it is different. The analogy given is vi versus a standard Windows word processor. I am not disputing that vi is a much more powerful…

Desktop Linux doesn't have a learning curve; it has a learning cliff. Linux cribs so much from other operating systems that it's reasonably familiar and easy to use when you first sit down, but the problems start when you need to go beyond using it as a dumb terminal: perhaps you need to set up a printer, or there's an issue with networking or power management. Now you're over the cliff. It can be a nightmare for a e…

It can be a nightmare for a engineer like myself to fix problems, even though I've been using Linux since the mid-90s. An unsophisticated user would be finished.

I hear this a lot, but nobody ever actually describes the problem they have. You mentioned priting. On my minimal Debian box, you point your web browser at http://localhost:631 and click shit and then the printer works. (If you want to improve print quality / feature support, then you probably need to google to decide which driver is best.)

On my Ubuntu 11.04 box, you type "printing" into the thing at the top left, click "add printer", click "network printer", click "find", and click "ok". That's it. Then you have that printer in every application, and from the command line via lpr.

It can't get any easier.

The only way you can run into problems is if you buy a printer that's not supported by Linux. And I think that's where most people run into trouble -- they buy something unsupported, and then spend three months googling in the hopes that maybe it's not really unsupported. One time in ten, it turns out that it is. The other nine times lead to stories like "Linux never works".

Nope, shitty hardware never works. Linux just hides that from you less than Windows.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#39

Post by jrockway »

huge_dong_420 wrote: post #11
Goladus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like orthogonal, compose-able features. I like self-documenting configuration. I like grep. I like multiple desktops. I like managing my configuration using revision control (though the move towards using databases is making this a bit more difficult). I like the thorough and reliable documentation in man pages. I like transparency and the ability to read the source of most any aspect of the system. I like my distr…

Strangely, my grandmother isn't terribly concerned by these issues. Why are you listing open sourceness and man pages as a reason that Joe Average User should use Linux? Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with Joe.

Here's why the average Joe should use Linux instead of Windows: it's $200 cheaper. If all you are going to do is connect to Wifi and run Chrome... guess what, you don't need a Windows license.

After that, it's all details. Windows has spyware. Linux has apt-get. But users don't care.

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