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Gitlab default branch name changes to main

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Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#201

Post by fuzxi »

raydev wrote: post #199
macspoofing wrote: post #158

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous c…

That’s a lot of words to say “this is a good change and nothing has been lost.” Incredible that this post has almost 200 comments.

He didn't say it's a good change. He said it's a CYA move that's become necessary.

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#202

Post by devnull255 »

macspoofing wrote: post #158

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous c…

If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously.

This article gives a nice introduction into the work of cognitive linguists George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-.... The language constructs we use embed positive and negative associations with the words used to describe black or white things, low or high concepts.

But I have to admit my bewilderment with the default branch name change too. I've seen older uses of the word master to mean original source of truth or master of students -- or padawan.

I believe it's better to live in a time where we think more seriously about the words we choose to use than in one we don't. Language is fluid and always changing anyway.

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#203

Post by TechnoTimeStop »

macspoofing wrote: post #158

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous c…

It's not America. America is the only truly free country. Only 15 counties in the world allow you to even own land if you're not from a specific religious group, ethnicity, or born in the country.

And guess what they're all western democracies.

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#204

Post by fuzxi »

afavour wrote: post #137
IshKebab wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but people are arguing about it because it is unnecessary! I bet if an API you use broke backwards compatibility just so it could `color` to `colour` you'd be arguing against it too!

OK so we’re finally at the actual core of the matter: the technical arguments aren’t actually valid, it’s that you don’t think it’s worth the minimal effort because you don’t personally know of anyone that is offended by the master/slave connotation of “master” branches. That’s always the actual core of the complaint yet everyone dances around it.

He didn't dance around it; it was the first thing he said. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26455182

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#205

Post by noodlesUK »

TechnoTimeStop wrote: post #203
macspoofing wrote: post #158

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous c…

It's not America. America is the only truly free country. Only 15 counties in the world allow you to even own land if you're not from a specific religious group, ethnicity, or born in the country. And guess what they're all western democracies.

What? Citation needed. Unless you’re talking about citizenship/permanent residence being a prerequisite to owning land, there’s 27 countries in the EU alone that I think serve as counterexamples...

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#206

Post by macspoofing »

devnull255 wrote: post #202
macspoofing wrote: post #158

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous c…

If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously. This article gives a nice introduction into the work of cognitive linguists George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. https://theconversation.com/how-did-white-become-a-metaphor-... . The language constructs we use embed positive and negative associations with the words used to describe black or white things, low or high conc…

>If you dig a little deeper you might find your brain does make that kind of connection subconsciously.

I'm sure the brain makes all kinds of connections subconsciously. The specific claim though is that your brain makes racist connections (where 'racist' is broadly defined by certain kinds of social 'scientists', where the academic field of 'social science' in general is sloppy and non-rigorous), with the corollary being that you then perform racist actions. Those propositions are wholly unproven and on the surface strike me as pseudo-science.

I have also yet to see any evidence that that cultural connotations behind the colors 'white' and 'black' (like 'white is pure' and 'black is evil') actually even maps to people or racist behaviour. Do people see 'dark eyes' or 'black hair' as evil? First I hear of that. And I'm not even sure if the white/black connotations are cultural at all. I suspect that they come from something deeper, namely, nighttime was/is dangerous for our species. As I child, I was afraid of the dark and I can guarantee it had nothing to do with race or anything from culture. Where did I learn that?

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#207

Post by dang »

alacombe wrote: post #180
dang wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. This sort of provocation is close to trolling. It seriously damages the thread, especially when the topic is provocative. Please don't do it again. There are plenty of ways to make substantive comments on both sides of this question, as other users have demonstrated. Please either do that instead, or (always a fine option) don't post. https://news.ycombinator.com/ne…

This all thread is a huge flamewar...

It's a matter of degree. If you don't consider that, it leads to a nihilistic "why bother" attitude that actually makes things much worse. Let's inch our way toward something better instead.

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#208

Post by easytiger »

pdxandi wrote: post #183
ec109685 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Master / slave are catch all terms versus more precise ones that represent the exact relationship of two systems.

I personally prefer primary/secondary anyway.

That doesn't infer the same relationship of dependency, but infers a parallel independent relationship.

Not the same thing.

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#209

Post by snicker7 »

ec109685 wrote: post #162
macspoofing wrote: post #158

Yeah, I get it. It is a necessary change just so you take this of the table and not deal with the sporadic complaints that would come. Keeping the 'master' or 'master-slave' (in context of HA) terms just isn't worth potentially offending someone, or losing a sale, or getting bad press. We changed our verbage a couple years in our product as well just for that reason (Master-Slave to Primary-Secondary). The previous c…

The terms whitelist and blacklist aren’t very precise. The better terms allow list, deny list or something that more concretely describes the auth model are actually helpful.

In 2022: the terms "allowlist" and "denylist" evoke the realization that marginalized groups where and are DENIED privileges afforded to others. You are now cancelled.

Re: Gitlab default branch name changes to main

#210

Post by mswtk »

oap_bram wrote: post #157
mswtk wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for at least a couple actual examples of this change helping people feel better about participating in technology. In the absence of such, it all feels very performative and, dare I say, a cheap way to score good PR for participating organizations. I don't think it really hurts anyone to an extent that it should be opposed, but neither does it really help, until proven o…

I would suggest looking up what the Dutch did in relation to race equality in history and how we were involved in a lot of slave trade, sometimes even to the US. I would say you have a point with saying it's performative, and I don't have anything to counter that. However, perhaps your energy could be spent looking for someone that is actually offended by this to counter your own perspective? Kinda Karl Popper style…

> I would suggest looking up what the Dutch did in relation to race equality in history and how we were involved in a lot of slave trade, sometimes even to the US.

I am aware of the history, but that's not enough to give the words themselves emotional charge and significance. The reason this is so for Americans is that the consequences of slavery and racial segregation are keenly felt right now - it's not just an abstract wrong committed on people long ago and far away. As a point of comparison, I'm from Eastern Europe, and the word "slave" is derived from "Slav" - but this is effectively ancient history with little bearing on the present, and so the word doesn't carry any emotional charge or special meaning.

To put things differently, is there a segment of the Dutch populace for whom the words "master" and "slave" signify that kind of viscerally felt injustice, as they do for black people in the US? This isn't a gotcha question, I genuinely don't know, and these kinds can be arbitrary and irrational. For Poles, "slavery" is abstract, but "forced labor" brings up some major traumas from around World War 2, for example.

> Kinda Karl Popper style of disprove your own theory?

I was hoping someone would do it for me in this thread. :) Might still happen, if not, I might have to do some digging.

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