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Linux is Not Windows

linux.oneandoneis2.org

21–30 of 97 posts

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#21
I'm guessing the X in title of this post is standing for "desktop", since that's what the other post on the front page today was referring to. But I think the problems in this article have nothing to do with the mainstream indifference towards Linux on the desktop. (And before I start, I should say I love Linux and have used it as my primary machine for years--and am still using it now.) I think the problems are:

1. The milestone-release system in most big distros. For Ubuntu, the biggest and supposedly most user-friendly distro, I'm expected to upgrade every 6 months. One could argue that if your system is working OK, then you can stick with one release forever--imagine still using 8.04 in 2011. But what if I want Firefox 4, or a new version of a single program? In Windows, you just go to the website and install, or sometimes the program auto-updates itself. On Ubuntu, I must update the entire system, even if I want just one program to update. That means when I update to Firefox 4, there's a chance my wifi will no longer work (happened to me in 9.04), or that hibernate won't work (happened to me in 11.04) or that my desktop environment will be shockingly different for no reason. All I wanted was Firefox--but to get it, I've got to swallow Unity and any other half-baked software the distro throws at me.

My mom ranted at me for 15 minutes because I installed FF4 on her Windows machine and now her "Home" button was on the other side of the address bar and her address bar wasn't on top anymore. Can you imagine if she had been using Ubuntu, clicked "yes" to the upgrade prompt just to get it out of the way, and had been presented with Unity? She would have had a stroke.

Yes, you can install PPA's and through various console voodoo upgrade only certain parts of the system, but not every program has a PPA and installing them is beyond a mere mortal's grasp.

And, even if you decide to skip a 6-month upgrade, at some point you won't have a choice--security updates will stop coming. Good luck upgrading an Ubuntu system with 2 years of upgrades in a row--you're going to have to flatten and reinstall, again something beyond mere mortals.

2. Quality control--and this is tied in with #1. Again going with Ubuntu (but I think this applies to most other distros as well): every time I upgrade, I'm presented with a literal swamp of fresh bugs and regressions for things that used to work. I've been using the same laptop since 8.04, and with each upgrade something that used to work breaks, something that was broken before gets fixed, and I get new bugs to deal with. Sometimes hibernate doesn't work; sometimes wifi; sometimes the boot splash is corrupt; sometimes this, sometimes that. I know quality control is a hard thing to do considering it's all volunteer-powered and we're fighting against propriety lock-in; but there's just no excuse if you're trying to put Linux on the desktop.

If Linux is to beat Windows, it has to be easy to update specific software without updating every damn thing and without regressions. Windows has, more or less, managed to do this. So far Linux hasn't, for whatever reason. Until they do, it'll be relegated to being an enthusiast's OS (and there's nothing wrong with that either).

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#22

I think we can all agree Linux != Windows, but shit it's 2011. Somethings should just work.

Who writes the drivers for this software that 'Just Works'?

Over and over again I see commercial OS vendors implicitly credited for writing drivers that were actually supplied by the hardware manufacturers themselves.

The vast majority of the general population find that their Windows and OS X machines 'Just Work' because they come preconfigured with all of the manufacturer's drivers already installed.

Linux can't 'Just Work' in the Desktop space because:

1. It doesn't have majority market share (like Microsoft), so not all hardware manufacturers will make it a priority for their hardware to have good Linux drivers.

2. It doesn't control the hardware platform (like Apple), so it is likely that a significant proportion of users will have machines that have unsupported / badly supported hardware.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#23

The problem that I continue to see is, people have this image of Linux and the "Linux Desktop". That image, that tons of "hacker" types that love OS X seem to have, hasn't changed in years and is extremely out of date. I hear people talk about problems or applications that haven't been standard linux fair for years now, but they haven't tried it and by-golly they're unbelievably attached to those memories they have o…

Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have. Linux solves a whole host of problems that developers have very well, and does a very poor job of solving the problems that most people have.

If you tally up a list of possible problems someone might encounter in their entire computing use Linux will definitely solve far more intuitively than Windows, however, when tally up a list of possible problems someone might have and multiply it by the frequency in which they have them the polishes on Windows and OS X to solve those problems are far better.

Lets take for example what happens when I plug my projector into my laptop using Windows vs. Ubuntu, on Ubuntu nothing happens, on Windows it starts showing stuff on my projector (once in a while it doesn't and have I have to press Windows+P and move to the projector option, or unplug it and plug it back in again).

By any standardized method of testing Linux will excel, when you put people in front of it it's obvious that it's inferior. Hell, my friend happens to have a Sony Xperia, I ask him why the GUI is so sluggish and get some answer about Sony charging his provider for updates, and them not having updates, and not wanting to root his phone, apparently the issue is fixed in some version of Android that he can't update to. When I hear this I think, that sounds like too much of a pain in the ass, I'll stick with my iPhone, when normal people hear this they think, Sony Xperias / Android are broken.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#24
post #16

The problems that the article addresses are not the ones that I would have chosen. I think the main problem that new users to Linux have is the steep learning curve. The author dismisses user friendliness with the implication that the only reason Linux is difficult to learn is because it is different. The analogy given is vi versus a standard Windows word processor. I am not disputing that vi is a much more powerful…

Is vi difficult to learn? I learned the basics immediately and was able to modify and save files and quit the editor (with or without saving) in pretty short order. I don't think it's difficult to learn, you just learn how to use it in a different way, and if you spend a lot of time editing plain text files, that makes a lot of sense. That's the author's point, I think: vi isn't less friendly just because it's written for a different class of people and used in a different way.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#25
The LEGO argument may make people believe that linux is just a toy and not for production uses. Apart from that, it's quite simple and straight forward. BTW, we do have pre-built, highly customized distributions offered for those who likes things that work out of box.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#26
post #23

The problem that I continue to see is, people have this image of Linux and the "Linux Desktop". That image, that tons of "hacker" types that love OS X seem to have, hasn't changed in years and is extremely out of date. I hear people talk about problems or applications that haven't been standard linux fair for years now, but they haven't tried it and by-golly they're unbelievably attached to those memories they have o…

Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have. Linux solves a whole host of problems that developers have very well, and does a very poor job of solving the problems that most people have. If you tally up a list of possible problems someone might encounter in their entire computing use Linux will definitely solve far more intuitively than Windows, however, when tally up a list of possib…

>Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have.

I'm just going to address this point right here. Almost all normal people I know would really appreciate being able to get internet in any variety of locales where they'd otherwise have to wrangle with stupid WiFi login screens and money portals or where even crappy commercial WiFi is unavailable (park?). The thing is that most people just don't even consider that it is or should be possible.

If the "normal person" is incidentally using Ubuntu and Cyanogenmod, all we have to do is plug the phone in via USB, turn on tethering on the phone, click "HTC Android Phone" on "the two computers on the screen" (nm-applet), and that's that.

This is extremely handy in a lot of cases. Today, for instance, I tethered my phone and used it to browse for a few hours because Comcast was choking to death on my new modem and I had to wait for a "backend engineer" to process the ticket the customer service people created. Do you think that having a redundant net connection with just your phone and a USB cord is valuable, even to "normal people"? I sure do.

As to the rest of your post, you can generalize anything you want into a niche. I could say, "You know, 'normal people' only use their computers for Facebook, they definitely aren't trying to plug them into projectors". The reality is that plugging in a projector should work on Ubuntu and often does. As you noted, Windows is not perfect in this regard either; Ubuntu works excellently for a large number of people. Is that OK with you?

Saying that Ubuntu can never take off because you have to manually specify projector output is quite far-fetched. Should I say that Windows will never take off because you usually have to install software to use your peripherals when on Linux they are almost always supported immediately upon plug in?

Here's the real answer: desktop Linux will come around when it gets a company like Apple behind it, just as embedded Linux came around as TiVO, Google, Boxee, etc., put their weight behind it.

Microsoft sells relatively few copies of Windows directly to consumers; almost all consumers receive Windows pre-installed on the computer that they purchased at major retailer X. The manufacturers integrate the OS and the hardware, ship it out, and sell the whole thing as a single product called a "PC". When Linux gets someone that does this on a major, Dell-like scale, we'll see Linux on the desktop. It's well past good enough; really, these things don't take all that much. The biggest obstacles are social: "Why doesn't this greeting card creation program I just bought for $60 work on my 'UBUNTOX'?"

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#27
post #21

I'm guessing the X in title of this post is standing for "desktop", since that's what the other post on the front page today was referring to. But I think the problems in this article have nothing to do with the mainstream indifference towards Linux on the desktop. (And before I start, I should say I love Linux and have used it as my primary machine for years--and am still using it now.) I think the problems are: 1.…

Most people (meaning the 'general population', 'mainstream users', and 'average Tom, Dick, or Harry') who aren't GNU/Linux users have either:

a) Never heard of G/L

b) Don't know how to install it; don't care; 'Windows/Mac is good enough for me'

c) Have had compatibility problems with it when they tried

Of course, the idea of general population depends on who you interact with the most, but let's assume general means people who go to Best Buy/Costco/Walmart for computers. These people would probably be willing to try G/L if it came by default. Yet the moment some weird error came up that involved anything more than a simple Google search, back to the store the computer goes. This is not only a loss of money for sellers and manufacturers, but also ends up being really bad PR.

G/L distros like gNewsense or Trisquel (both of which run Linux-libre) would run and sell really well at Best Buy if the video cards, wifi adapters, etc. they would come with worked out of the box. Yet God forbid you use some other [wifi adapter, insert other unsupported device] that doesn't have the right firmware! (Of course, this also applies to regular G/L albeit much less so.) Most 'average Joes' don't care about things like FLOSS unless it works and doesn't require a lot of work to setup and use constantly.

That's not to mention running Windows programs that don't have a FLOSS alternative.

My point is this: G/L won't become immensely popular without the major compatibility issues being fixed and it becoming a default install on a whole major line of computers. Compatibility won't be fixed until the vendors of the devices or programs see a significant profit intake from releasing the firmware/whatever and do so. Default installation won't happen until some major hardware company comes along and sells G/L only.

TL;DR: G/L needs major support to become commercially popular.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#28

The problem that I continue to see is, people have this image of Linux and the "Linux Desktop". That image, that tons of "hacker" types that love OS X seem to have, hasn't changed in years and is extremely out of date. I hear people talk about problems or applications that haven't been standard linux fair for years now, but they haven't tried it and by-golly they're unbelievably attached to those memories they have o…

All of the desktop OSes I use suck.

On Linux, I can't even use X + Awesome + without huge amounts of tearing and nearly 1 second delays while the WM redraws my terminal emulators while switching virtual desktops. A more experienced friend of mine suggested that this could be due to using nvidia binary graphics drivers, so I tried out the open source ones, but the tearing and delays got worse, and occasionally an entire window would be mangled for no apparent reason. He also suggested that it could be due to XRandR, but I noticed no change when I stopped using it (other than that my displays were no longer vertical), so now I'm using the binary drivers and XRandR again.

After upgrading from Ubuntu 10.04 to 11.04, I was unable to use my onboard NIC at all. I thought that it had been bricked, so I put another in, but eventually someone I knew experienced the same problem and was able to fix it by temporarily removing the battery from his motherboard. Apparently the drivers that ship with 11.04 like to put your network card into an unusable state until you physically mess with the machine. You could just be careful not use them and download the working drivers, but you might need a NIC for that...

On OSX, Spaces has a bug that causes windows to randomly rearrange themselves on the Z-axis when switching spaces. It also has a bug that causes your keyboard to stop working completely. The first time I encountered the second bug I had to reboot my computer because I couldn't kill Spaces without using my keyboard, but I have since put Activity Monitor in my dock just in case I need to do that. Fullscreen games on OSX (Starcraft II or Heroes of Newerth, for example) run a reasonably high chance of never giving up exclusive mode, even after dying, so your machine will become mostly inoperable after playing the game a lot of the time. There's also no reasonable way to run these games in fullscreen non-exclusive mode (the most useful configuration on other OSes), so you can't quickly switch between the game and Skype/screencasting software/IRC.

...And I hardly think I need to tell anyone here what sucks about Windows.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#29

The problem that I continue to see is, people have this image of Linux and the "Linux Desktop". That image, that tons of "hacker" types that love OS X seem to have, hasn't changed in years and is extremely out of date. I hear people talk about problems or applications that haven't been standard linux fair for years now, but they haven't tried it and by-golly they're unbelievably attached to those memories they have o…

All of the desktop OSes I use suck. On Linux, I can't even use X + Awesome + without huge amounts of tearing and nearly 1 second delays while the WM redraws my terminal emulators while switching virtual desktops. A more experienced friend of mine suggested that this could be due to using nvidia binary graphics drivers, so I tried out the open source ones, but the tearing and delays got worse, and occasionally an enti…

Wait. You're using the nvidia driver, but are you using an accelerated window manager. Are you using mutter? Are you using compiz?

Ubuntu's 11.04 compiz is unstable, don't let me deceive you. BUT, it is far superior to plain old metacity with nvidia. Ugh, that shit tears and is awful.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have. Linux solves a whole host of problems that developers have very well, and does a very poor job of solving the problems that most people have. If you tally up a list of possible problems someone might encounter in their entire computing use Linux will definitely solve far more intuitively than Windows, however, when tally up a list of possib…

>Getting your phone to work as a modem is not a problem that most people have. I'm just going to address this point right here. Almost all normal people I know would really appreciate being able to get internet in any variety of locales where they'd otherwise have to wrangle with stupid WiFi login screens and money portals or where even crappy commercial WiFi is unavailable (park?). The thing is that most people just…

Oh you meant tethering? Yeah, that's super easy on Windows, you plug your iPhone in enable tethering and it just works. Same thing with the bluetooth tethering.

I thought you meant using your cell phone to place an outgoing call to a dialup internet service.

Note: I don't have an AT&T iPhone where I understand this doesn't work and yes, if you don't like iTunes it's probably going to be a PITA to get this to work.

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