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Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

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Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then devs should research and develop PoW which is more efficient and takes less energy and come up with solution that does additional useful work on top of verifying transactions.

'PoW which takes less energy' is an oxymoron. The whole point is to demonstrate cryptographically a certain amount of effort (combination of energy and efficiency of hardware implementing a deliberatly inefficient function) has taken place. The network adjusts the difficulty dynamically depending on the amount of effort being put in (basically the rewards are fixed: miners simply compete for a bigger slice of the pie…

>The only way to really reduce the energy use of coin is to reduce the block rewards or reduce the price.

You can rewrite difficulty formula and make it easier to mine and therefore decrease energy consumption. Bitcoin's protocol is set in stone but if some dev likes to play with protocol like Vitalik he or she can do it. It would shift market and coin price downwards but if energy consumption is really a problem it is tax you have to pay.

>There's no particular reason bitcoin's rewards are either not overkill or sufficient to secure the network against an attacker.

Satoshi introduced blockchain checkpoint which basically enforces consensus.

"The security safeguard makes it so even if someone does have more than 50% of the network's CPU power, they can't try to go back and redo the block chain" [1]

This is centralized decision but it is better than changing protocol completely like Vitalik did (going from PoW to PoS).

>because the currency has built-in adjustments which can be made by the foundation, in theory it can adjust the block reward dynamically to the right amount, though there's both political issues in terms of appeasing the miners when you cut their profit and technical issues in actually working out what is good enough.

So centralized foundation controls decentralized network? And what is right amount?

>But at a certain point it's more profitable to attack the system than secure it, so it's a difficult balancing act.

How come? When all coins are mined miners will switch to transaction fees and they will compete for transaction fees. If you want faster confirmation time you will pay higher transaction fee for your transaction meaning miners earning more, you can do this now as well.

>Likewise 'doing additional useful work' is not something you can actually do in a trustless manner like with proof of work

It doesn't have to be additional useful work it can be in the core design of the proof of work.

In 2013 there was a coin called Primecoin which "computed chains of prime numbers (Cunningham and bi-twin chains), the results of which were published on its blockchain's public ledger, available for use by scientists, mathematicians, and anyone else."[2]

"Use of a proof-of-work system to calculate chains of prime numbers was an innovation that produced useful results while also meeting the criteria for a proof-of-work system: it involved a calculation that was difficult to perform but easy to verify, and the difficulty was adjustable."

It was first coin which had a proof of work with a practical use.

It is still early days but this is the most recent paper I found about this matter: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/203.pdf

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=437.msg3807#msg3807

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primecoin

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#502
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanna store value? Buy actual value - that is things that make the wealth. Stocks in major companies, real estate, land in places people want to live in. The concept that buying promises is a good way to store value is a bizarre concept to me.

This has always perplexed me too. There's a nice Buffett quote on this ( https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2011ltr.pdf ): "Today the world’s gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce – gold’s price as I write this – its value would be $9.6 tri…

If you bought Exxon Mobil in 2011, oof. It's down 25% while gold is up 25%. Warren Buffett is irrelevant, literally the old man shouting at sky. His ideas are garbage and lose money, what other proof you need?

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#503
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been keeping up with the developments in the crypto space from the outside for the past few years. Never really invested in any currency as it always felt too risky / speculative for my taste. It wasn't until last year with the upcoming of DeFi (Decentralized Finance) that I decided to get involved somehow, instead of just watching innovation happen. I also think this really has a lot of potential. So I starte…

Thanks for sharing! I'm curious what you use to generate the high quality diagrams for the readme and on your blog.

You're welcome !

I use draw.io [1] for technical diagrams (ex: flowchart, UML, etc) and Google Drawings [2] for more generic diagrams (ex: system designs).

[1] http://draw.io/

[2] https://docs.google.com/drawings/

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#504
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been keeping up with the developments in the crypto space from the outside for the past few years. Never really invested in any currency as it always felt too risky / speculative for my taste. It wasn't until last year with the upcoming of DeFi (Decentralized Finance) that I decided to get involved somehow, instead of just watching innovation happen. I also think this really has a lot of potential. So I starte…

> 1] https://github.com/TCGV/DeFiOptions so you _did_ end up buying a boat load of ethereum i presume?

Not yet. For now the project "alpha" version is only deployed on Kovan testnet, in which ETH is free.

When I started coding this project ETH price was around US$ 500, and gas prices around ~40 Gwei, making it feasible to launch the project on mainnet without much hassle using my own funds.

Since then ETH has gone up to the roof. Now ETH is ~US$ 1900 and gas price ~150 Gewi, making it 14x more expensive to launch.

I'm still evaluating if I should launch on ethereum mainnet or in a different solidity compatible blockchain (ex: Binance Smart Chain, Avalanche) once the project reaches a beta version due to the cost of deployment.

In the project main page I ask for donations for covering deployment costs [1], but so far I was unable to secure any funds.

[1] https://github.com/TCGV/DeFiOptions#support-mainnet

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#505
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's centralized in both directions. Small development team and small group of powerful miners.

What are you talking about, it has the most developers of any project.

Pareto Distribution. Most of the developers did very little.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#506
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're not going to 51% attack the network. We're just going to allocate 51% of the hashrate into a single pool to demonstrate that we could 51% attack the network" Why should this threat of violence be treated differently than the act itself? Miners are threatening to do the one thing their entire existence is supposed to prevent. They're cutting off their noses to spite their faces, instead of enjoying another year…

Because whether it’s an attack or not is more to do with the framing than act. If you get all the miners together and can amass 51% of the hash power then you have consensus and have enough control of the network to simply not accept the EIP. If something like this isn’t possible and you don’t actually need consensus to push through changes then the whole “distributed” part is just a fiction and we’re really talking…

This isn't something new, Bitcoin went through this in 2017 (relevant keywords: UASF, segwit, BCH).

You don't need a miner majority to do fork the chain, both versions (with and without fork) will exist and whichever is most valued by users/the market tends to "win" and bring miners back in because they like money.

Unlike your voting on a bill analogy, the reality of blockchains is that both universes can co-exist.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However you could change the protocol / software and block the addresses of people who don't support the PoW chain. It would be a bit messy. However if you are sitting with a massive ETH mining rig, you would like to do something with your hardware.

So one can ask. Who has the biggest say in a cryptocurrency? The owners of the coins, the developers, the miners? Actually I would argue it would be the exchanges: What the major exchanges choose to trade as Ethereum is what will continue.

It's a big hodge-podge and that's what makes it great.

Ultimately society/the market decides which version is worth more.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#508
post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the Ethereum Classic crowd made the same mistake in the context of the DAO "hack". DAO: Code is law, code is law, trust the code over any natural language document that describes our smartcontracts. "Hacker": Okay, if the smartcontract says that, then it follows that I'm entitled to these ETH if I do this... DAO: What? No! That's not fair! That's not what we meant! Oh, come on, do-over! ETH Classic: No? That def…

This is the classical distributed consensus fallacy. Law is only law if there's consensus around it. The "original" law still lives on in the form of ETC, but it happens that the other one generates way more consensus around itself, and thus that's the more valuable one. Distributed consensus means no one can change the rules unless there's a "majority" defined by PoW, PoS, PoA, or something else, that chooses to cha…

Which means there's as many "legitimate" chains as there are ways to define a majority, and as blockchain entries increasingly denote external assets things are about to get very messy. In the end disagreements will probably be adjudicated by traditional governments based on regular contract law (in the best cases) or individual physical force (in the not-exactly-so-formal ones), and after a few instances of that maybe we can be done with the whole foolishness.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#509

I'm one of the maintainers of one of the implementations of eth2 live today ( https://github.com/prysmaticlabs/prysm ) and can help offer more context on this. Ethereum proof of stake has been live since December 1st and it currently secures over 6 billion USD worth of value https://beaconcha.in/ . Currently, this is a chain that lives in parallel to the proof of work chain we know as Ethereum today. The idea is that…

Sounds like trying to land a helicopter on a boat in rough seas.

First, they need to keep the miners happy until the second before they are turned off.

Second, "escalating" the deployment of code seems like an always bad idea for such a massive system.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'PoW which takes less energy' is an oxymoron. The whole point is to demonstrate cryptographically a certain amount of effort (combination of energy and efficiency of hardware implementing a deliberatly inefficient function) has taken place. The network adjusts the difficulty dynamically depending on the amount of effort being put in (basically the rewards are fixed: miners simply compete for a bigger slice of the pie…

>The only way to really reduce the energy use of coin is to reduce the block rewards or reduce the price. You can rewrite difficulty formula and make it easier to mine and therefore decrease energy consumption. Bitcoin's protocol is set in stone but if some dev likes to play with protocol like Vitalik he or she can do it. It would shift market and coin price downwards but if energy consumption is really a problem it…

> You can rewrite difficulty formula and make it easier to mine and therefore decrease energy consumption. Bitcoin's protocol is set in stone but if some dev likes to play with protocol like Vitalik he or she can do it. It would shift market and coin price downwards but if energy consumption is really a problem it is tax you have to pay.

easy to mine == easy to attack. If you make it easier to do the miners (and attackers) will simply do it more (in fact an important attribute of proof of work is that the difficulty is dynamically adjustable to keep the block rate reasonably steady). Changing your proof of work does nothing but change the hardware miners are using. etherium has a function designed to work best (or at least close to best) on GPUs compared to bitcoin's which is most optimally implemented on an ASIC. You can also try to optimise for general purpose CPUs or FPGAs. But it does not change the amount of energy miners are incentivised to put in. Only changing the block reward does that. The whole deal with proof of work is that the work is what secures the network by incentivising miners to do more work than an attacker is willing or able to put in.

> Satoshi introduced blockchain checkpoint which basically enforces consensus.

This is a nice sanity check but it basically does nothing against 51% attacks. No realistic attack scenario involves a complete rewriting of the chain, nor is that necessary to make money or substantially destroy trust in the system. If you are waiting for your transaction to be in a checkpoint in a version rolled out to almost all bitcoin nodes, I submit that you have a cryptocurrency which is even less convenient for transactions than gold bars. It's also got nothing to do with whether bitcoin's block reward is well chosen or not.

> So centralized foundation controls decentralized network? And what is right amount?

Indeed. it can't rule entirely without the consent of the markets, but in practice it has a fair amount of control. And what is the right amount of proof of work is a very difficult question to answer. My main point is there's no particular reason bitcoin's reward structure (either block rewards or transaction fees) should correlate with it. Etherium at least in principle has more potential to react to changes in the situation, even if 'what the community/foundation thinks is the right amount' is also probably a relatively poor estimator of the correct level.

> computed chains of prime numbers (Cunningham and bi-twin chains), the results of which were published on its blockchain's public ledger, available for use by scientists, mathematicians, and anyone else

I would be interested in whether anyone actually used this information. I have similar reservations about other 'useful' proofs of work. I'll believe it when people are actually bidding to have their problems used in the chain (which is inevitable as soon as such a proof of work is useful).

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