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Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

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Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t you need fewer and less extreme lockdowns every couple of months if you aren’t opening everything up every couple of months?

Yeah, you’d only need one strict lockdown if you’re not opening up everything every couple of months. It just never ends. Is this a joke?

Well, no, that’s exactly what I’m saying would not be the case. The longer lockdown would not need to be anywhere near as strict as the lockdown that comes after a month of opening everything back up.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is the most populous country on Earth, and geographically, one of the largest. It has followed a similar strategy as New Zealand and Australia. That strategy has worked to keep the country essentially CoVID-19-free over the past year.

That's what you've been told by Chinese authorities; whom we have no reason to trust due to previous events.

So you only trust the reports of bad things?

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#323
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize health is not a "me" problem? It is an "US" problem. Frankly, we have a number of US problems brewing and we have them due to not having our priorities in order as a people, human beings.

Another way of looking at it is that most people are incompetent at being selfish. A competently selfish person would realize that having compassion for their fellow human beings is one of the most selfish traits they could ever have.

Indeed. The advantages add right up quickly. In my view, that it does not all end up in a spreadsheet or bank account makes this a harder discussion than it needs to be.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps unpopular opinion If I was responsible for policy, I would ask (have asked) a scientist to model this rather than stating it as opinion. I suspect that any model would just show you to be extremely wrong, for a virus which is already circulating freely.

It’s not a scientific problem. The scientific solution to contain the pandemic would be a full 21 day absolute shutdown of everything with people surviving on rations. It becomes a political problem if you try to do that in any functioning democracy. Decisions made about people must have a feedback loop to learn from how people react to it. For example, the lockdown became ineffective when it was extended too long. P…

There was no lockdown in any state in the USA. There were instead these totally unenforced “stay at home” orders which people ignored with no consequences. Emergency public health directives during a catastrophe do not need a feedback loop: they need to be enforced, regularly and visibly. That never happened on the USA, and the results have been tragic and predictable.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a scientific problem. The scientific solution to contain the pandemic would be a full 21 day absolute shutdown of everything with people surviving on rations. It becomes a political problem if you try to do that in any functioning democracy. Decisions made about people must have a feedback loop to learn from how people react to it. For example, the lockdown became ineffective when it was extended too long. P…

None of that is relevant to vaccination. I agree it's a political problem - a political solution is proven by Asian democracies and Australasian democracies. As you say, it was pretty obvious that a 21-day lockdown with appropriate testing and follow-up would have resolved this issue in any country. The people's right to have an opinion does not change the truth, that an indefinitely long half-lockdown is a bad compr…

We all want to resume our normal lives, but introducing lockdowns as mentioned here in a european country would just not be acceptable.

If the alternative is the imperfect half-lockdown then so be it. What matters now is a sharp focus on when normal life can resume.

In my view that point is when the elderly and people with comorbidities have been vaccinated, which is within reach now.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your genetic disorder shouldn’t be extended to negatively impact others, knowing your unique situation means you need to manage your risks. It’s entirely unfair and a violation of privacy for people to have to be brought into your health decisions and vice versa. Why would it ever be reasonable to expect the government to keep tabs on random strangers just because I have a genetic health condition? I would much r…

You do realize health is not a "me" problem? It is an "US" problem. Frankly, we have a number of US problems brewing and we have them due to not having our priorities in order as a people, human beings.

Genuinely curious where you got that idea, my health is absolutely none of your business.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yep, that's how censorship works. China doesn't have the power to censor Western expats on Twitter, or the millions of live conversations going on at any given moment between people inside China and people outside. This view of China, that it's a black box that information can't escape out of, is simply not reality.

>China doesn't have the power to censor Western expats on Twitter, Yes, they do, directly and indirectly. Directly: Li-Meng Yan, the Chinese virologist who blew the whistle on covid in December 2019, but the Chinese government covered that up. She defected to the US, and published a research paper critical of the Chinese government, and Twitter banned her account. Indirectly: How likely do you think it would be for t…

Li-Meng Yan didn't blow the whistle in December 2019. She's a Hong Konger who started making crazy claims months after the outbreak began. She flew to the US, claimed she was persecuted, and now works for Steve Bannon. She's made all sorts of crazy claims, including that SARS-CoV-2 is a bioweapon.

The first pneumonia patients in Wuhan got their test results showing a suspected SARS-related coronavirus on 27 December 2019. The local authorities put out an alert on 30 December, which was instantly noticed by people around the world who track emerging infectious diseases. In other words, health professionals around the world knew about the Wuhan outbreak within 3 days of the first suspicious test results.

I don't think you realize the sheer volume of communication between people in China and the outside world. Many millions of everyday people are in regular contact across the border. There are many millions more people with VPNs who say whatever they want on Western social media. Even Chinese social media is way too active for the government to thoroughly monitor. Almost anything major that happens in China nowadays is known about outside China pretty much instantly. The idea that there's been a massive epidemic underway in China over the past year and that the government has been able to keep that information from leaking to the outside world is utterly implausible.

> They didn't even let a WHO investigation team into their country for almost a year

Which WHO investigation? The WHO visited on 20 January 2020, just three weeks after the outbreak was identified.[1] Months later, for political reasons, the Australian PM started demanding an "investigation." China didn't like the accusatory nature of the Australian demands, and it took months to negotiate a process that all sides considered reasonable. But the WHO was in Wuhan long before Australia began demanding a different sort of investigation.

1. https://www.who.int/china/news/detail/22-01-2020-field-visit...

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry also about an overreaction. At some level people who can survive a virus with little to no symptoms are better off contracting it than not, if only to form the antibodies to be ready for future mutants they might come in contact with. The behavior changes we make because of COVID could be dooming a lot of people to one day encounter much worse mutant viruses they could have been ready for.

I really hate this kind of logic. I get where it comes from but I still hate it. I have a genetic disorder that causes a compromised immune system, so germ control is my life. My life got better in some important ways with the entire rest of the world being less germy and disgusting. About one of out every five people is officially labeled "handicapped" and at least one study suggests that up to three out of every fi…

I totally agree with this. I’m not disabled but I do have a pretty crappy upper respiratory system, and I used to get URT infections regularly, like 7-8 times a year. In 2020? Not one. I think my increased awareness about hygiene and the same from the general public really had an effect. And yes, masks too. If there’s one thing positive I hope we can take from this, it is normalizing mask-wearing when you are sick or expect to be around sick people. I plan to continue the practice myself, and pay much more attention to hygiene and personal space, like not touching people unnecessarily.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we learned should be not to decimate small businesses like tossing leaves to the wind “don’t worry we’ll build back better!” and let people decide their own risk taking. I think that it’s almost more terrifying than the thing itself that more people aren’t mostly incredibly disturbed by the insane violations of privacy and speech. Literally you should not, in a free society, be able take such injurious actions b…

The problem isn't government tyranny. If half of the population decides it isn't safe to eat out at restaurants, then it won't make sense for restaurants to be open. Businesses and events are built on an assumption of a certain number of customers. If X% of the population decides to opt out of social life then it doesn't make sense for them to be open in the same way as before, government mandate or not. You can't go…

Sure it happens naturally though, if suddenly people stop coming to your restaurant or bar and you can’t maintain it anymore, but that’s a different thing entirely from the government forcing you out of business.

You are suppose to be free to move around and assemble, period. The idea that the governor or the mayor can just destroy an entire industry for the sake of another industry is pretty fucking bad. They caused waaaay more harm than good, and in many ways we haven’t fully seen yet.

Re: Vaccines should end the pandemic, despite the variants, say experts

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't government tyranny. If half of the population decides it isn't safe to eat out at restaurants, then it won't make sense for restaurants to be open. Businesses and events are built on an assumption of a certain number of customers. If X% of the population decides to opt out of social life then it doesn't make sense for them to be open in the same way as before, government mandate or not. You can't go…

Most people can think for themselves though. We're changing society for the people who can't think for themselves.

Yeah and it’s terrible. Lowest common denominator design makes everything worse.
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