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Linux is Not Windows

linux.oneandoneis2.org

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

#11

Post by huge_dong_420 »

Goladus wrote: post #4
j_baker wrote: post #2

You know, to a certain extent, unfriendliness is what I like about Linux. I like "friendly" systems for browsing the web, email, and watching video. But for hacking, Linux simply can't be beat. I really don't see why Linux needs to be an OS for Joe Internet User. What's wrong with Linux being a server/development OS?

I like orthogonal, compose-able features. I like self-documenting configuration. I like grep. I like multiple desktops. I like managing my configuration using revision control (though the move towards using databases is making this a bit more difficult). I like the thorough and reliable documentation in man pages. I like transparency and the ability to read the source of most any aspect of the system. I like my distr…

Strangely, my grandmother isn't terribly concerned by these issues.

Why are you listing open sourceness and man pages as a reason that Joe Average User should use Linux? Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with Joe.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#12

Post by wvenable »

karmafeeder wrote: post #8

Linux will win the desktop when everything moves to the browser. Programmers want only a good terminal and a good browser. Non-programmers want only a good browser. Linux has a best kernel and will win on that fact alone in the next ~20 years. Though likely, when Linux wins the desktop, no one will notice the difference.

Everything is moving to the browser but the browser now requires a lot of capabilities from the hardware and drivers: 3D acceleration, sound, printing, power management, etc. Effectively all the problem areas for Linux outside of custom hardware (like phones).

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#13

Post by sorbus »

wvenable wrote: post #12
karmafeeder wrote: post #8

Linux will win the desktop when everything moves to the browser. Programmers want only a good terminal and a good browser. Non-programmers want only a good browser. Linux has a best kernel and will win on that fact alone in the next ~20 years. Though likely, when Linux wins the desktop, no one will notice the difference.

Everything is moving to the browser but the browser now requires a lot of capabilities from the hardware and drivers: 3D acceleration, sound, printing, power management, etc. Effectively all the problem areas for Linux outside of custom hardware (like phones).

I've never had problems with any of those on Linux. YMMV, of course, and I may just have been lucky.

While you might have problems if you build a custom machine or use extremely recent hardware (which doesn't have good drivers), the general implication of browser-as-OS is that people wouldn't be installing this new system on old computers, but instead would buy new computers with it already baked in. Manufacturers, if they wanted to succeed, would be forced to make sure that all the drivers and the system in general worked well.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#14

Post by djd »

j_baker wrote: post #2

You know, to a certain extent, unfriendliness is what I like about Linux. I like "friendly" systems for browsing the web, email, and watching video. But for hacking, Linux simply can't be beat. I really don't see why Linux needs to be an OS for Joe Internet User. What's wrong with Linux being a server/development OS?

The reason Linux seems to be un friendly is because windows takes care you as a baby,most of the time you are not in control and there is nothing much to worry. So if kids where exposed to Linux first this problem would not arise IMHO

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#16

Post by afy »

The problems that the article addresses are not the ones that I would have chosen.

I think the main problem that new users to Linux have is the steep learning curve. The author dismisses user friendliness with the implication that the only reason Linux is difficult to learn is because it is different.

The analogy given is vi versus a standard Windows word processor. I am not disputing that vi is a much more powerful program, but I am saying that it is much harder to learn than Microsoft Word. Using Word, without knowing the keyboard shortcuts, you can use the toolbars to do what you want and in doing so you learn the shortcuts, most of which are printed next to the menu items.

Using vi, without knowing any keyboard shortcuts, you can do exactly nothing. Arguably vi is much better off without toolbars because they take up a lot of screen real estate and would be difficult to implement from a terminal window, but that does not mean there is no such thing as user friendliness. Another problem is the problem of hardware support[1], which the author does not address at all.

Having said that, I will agree with his point that since it doesn't really matter much to (with notable exceptions) most developers what features people not already using Linux would like to see, development is centred around people already using Linux and on more gentle slopes of the learning curve.

1. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2643671

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#17

Post by wvenable »

sorbus wrote: post #13
wvenable wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is moving to the browser but the browser now requires a lot of capabilities from the hardware and drivers: 3D acceleration, sound, printing, power management, etc. Effectively all the problem areas for Linux outside of custom hardware (like phones).

I've never had problems with any of those on Linux. YMMV, of course, and I may just have been lucky. While you might have problems if you build a custom machine or use extremely recent hardware (which doesn't have good drivers), the general implication of browser-as-OS is that people wouldn't be installing this new system on old computers, but instead would buy new computers with it already baked in. Manufacturers, i…

I'm pretty sure this link was posted in response to this earlier link on HN:

http://batsov.com/Linux/Windows/Rant/2011/06/11/linux-deskto...

Which covers most/all of those things. Reasonably new and innovative hardware (like GPU switching in laptops) just doesn't work, period. There are plenty more examples. The browser makes Linux worse since the only thing you need from your underlying platform is really good driver and power management support.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#18

Post by beloch »

The biggest problems preventing Linux from gaining mainstream market share have nothing do with the actual software.

1. MS and Apple are both fantastic marketers (although Apple has been doing better than MS as of late) and throw massive amounts of cash at promoting their OS's. Nobody is doing this for Linux.

2. The average customer is more inclined to trust something they saw plastic people hawking on TV than something that's free. People generally don't trust free stuff. If you're walking down the street and some random stranger offers you a sandwich, do you eat it? Most people wouldn't.

3. Inertia. Almost all computers come pre-loaded with an OS other than Linux. Most users will never install an OS on their computers themselves.

Most of the stereotypes about Linux are totally false these days. The above problems need solutions that probably aren't coming anytime soon. I find it interesting that a loose amalgamation of volunteer open-source programmers can build such a professional-grade OS and then completely fail to market it. What Linux needs is for open-source marketing to catch up to open-source software.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

#19

Post by sorbus »

wvenable wrote: post #17
sorbus wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had problems with any of those on Linux. YMMV, of course, and I may just have been lucky. While you might have problems if you build a custom machine or use extremely recent hardware (which doesn't have good drivers), the general implication of browser-as-OS is that people wouldn't be installing this new system on old computers, but instead would buy new computers with it already baked in. Manufacturers, i…

I'm pretty sure this link was posted in response to this earlier link on HN: http://batsov.com/Linux/Windows/Rant/2011/06/11/linux-deskto... Which covers most/all of those things. Reasonably new and innovative hardware (like GPU switching in laptops) just doesn't work, period. There are plenty more examples. The browser makes Linux worse since the only thing you need from your underlying platform is really good drive…

Yep, I saw that when it was posted earlier.

The only issue on the driver list I've ever encountered is wireless failing after suspending. Oddly, that issue only showed up after my latest kernel upgrade (and is a reason that I'm not using my netbook much until I figure out a fix). I suppose that I've just been very lucky with the hardware I've installed Linux on.

(I've also removed the FUD comment from my earlier post).

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