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Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#51

Post by mavelikara »

prakhar897 wrote: post #46

Can anybody tell me why anyone would want to join a non-eng team?

Of course, there are non-engineer SMEs in those non-eng teams. I think you meant to ask why an engineer would want to join a non-eng team.

Software is one of the most powerful force multipliers known to humans. If you are an engineer with strong problem solving skills, you will be able to build software solutions to non-engineering problems. Sometime the best rewards to these solutions come when you are part of a non-eng team. Example, software engineers working in finance.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#54

Post by connelldave »

runako wrote: post #26

Summarizing, it looks like the "dark patterns" are: 1) work on stuff that's important to the company, but build in public (inside the company) 2) get to know your team 3) work on stuff that's closer to the customer, and #4 cynical comments. Honestly, most of the YC and PG writings will give you more examples of how to do this stuff. And to the extent that you work in a place that gets stuff done, you will find all of…

This was my takeaway. Being engaged, empathetic and kind isn't a "dark pattern", but it's also not something that can be intellectually dismantled and practiced like leetcode. It's interesting seeing how often other humans are considered oppositional problems and "the solution is self-employment"!

Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#55

Post by redisman »

ineedasername wrote: post #43
redisman wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1) join a broken/toxic company. Theyre a lot more common than competent ones

Toxic I can't deal with. But I've made my career working in broken areas that simply didn't know how to do things better and giving them the tools to do so. It can be a weird feeling though. My proper domain of expertise is a sort of data analysis/programming mix to provide operational support for individual units to help them do their work better, but then more advanced analysis to inform the strategic directions of…

Getting stuck on one way of doing things is one of the big drivers of badness in the workplace for sure. No matter how little sense it makes if you go from first principals today. I think many people just want to do the bare minimum and go home, which honestly I sympathize with quite a bit. ie. "who cares if its inefficient, I'll just be doing something else meaningless with that time".

Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#57

Post by npteljes »

These are dark patterns only if you exaggerate them as such. There is a lot of good that you can do along the same lines. Reflecting to your points:

1. Communication is key. People can't magically share your experience, you have to share it with them deliberately.

2. Basically the same topic. The brain is lazy and often tries to take the shorter route. Regarding other people, it's easier to think that they are simple, one-dimensional beings, and as such, it's easier to judge them. So, in order to be viewed as a human, you need to share what it means being you. If you humanize yourself, and try to remember others as human, you will get more positive outcomes not because ugly politics, but because you are a better company.

3. Caring about problems people don't like to care about? I think that can be really fulfilling and yes, if others see that you're not afraid to tackle undesirable problems, they'll think you're useful.

4. This is something that is a true bad behavior. There's also a flipside that you'll now be stuck with your miserable code yourself. Also any competent manager or teammate will spot this and work against you, which you don't want.

My advice would be that it's best to stay away from workplaces where politics go like this, it just will bring misery on the long term. One has to play the game to some extent, but there's a lot of difference in only playing the game and using everyone, and just adapting to how humans work in a social setting and working with that.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#58

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 »

A lot of people argue that there is no point in getting acquainted with toxic office politics and instead one should leave for a more healthy work place.

Theoretically I support this sentiment but - as far as I can tell there are practically no work places without toxic office politics. The only difference is the degree to which it impacts the overall work experience.

Also engineers are traditionally placed at the end of the pecking order. I intentionally say "placed" because it is not so much a result of the individual engineer's personality as it is already a fundamental result of usual office politics.

Engineers suffer from various systemic weaknesses which are difficult and sometimes impossible to overcome. For example regarding office communication. IT is usually considered a separate part of the company which receives orders and is expected to deliver.

Also IT is full of youngsters who willingly succumb to office politics manipulating them into believing that overhours, a modest salery and fearful obedience to management are virtues paving their way to being respected, thanked and provided with a career. So, as a "woke" engineer you not just quarreling with outside forces but also have to effectively compete with colleagues in a frustrating race to the bottom.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#59

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #30
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #13

Deliberately playing office politics with manipulative behaviors like this is a losing game. These behaviors will be quickly identified and managed out in any competently managed team. If they work, it means you’re in an office that rewards bad behavior. Instead of trying to play the game, work on finding a better job. You’ll be happier and healthier. I’ve had to remove several employees over the years because they w…

I agree with you but I would say there is a lot of value in learning and being able to identify these type of behaviours. The more people know these things the more obvious and less effective they come and as you said it helps to smoke out potentially toxic members of the team.

I would like to believe you but my experience is that naturally toxic personalities will always be at an advantage at a toxic environment. First of all because for them it's not a process of identifying patterns, coming up with a response and then implementing it. It's like a scuba diver vs a fish in water. Every morning before work you have to check your scuba diving equipment for weaknesses, put it on and the tank will only last so long - metaphorically meaning that engaging toxicity for a healthy person is excpetionally draining on many levels.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a book that teaches you dark patterns of office politics?

#60

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 »

cipher_system wrote: post #53

Just focus on solving problems for people and be a person that people like to be around. Also learn to communicate properly, both in speech and writing. No one appreciates short common words substituted by numbers or single letters.

To play like this doesn't work for everyone. In a toxic and manipulative environment there is only a very fine line separating your intention of being liked and helpful, and in actuallity being considered a weak person who gladly takes over work from peers. This quickly turns into an expectation which will cause your workload to pile up. In the end your emotional capacity will drain and you'll act more touchy which will turn you into this weirdo who can't say no but isn't liked either. Then you start to decline requests. Now groups of co-scheming colleagues will be after you - they'll start to complain about how you're refusing to work on requests and will use their well lubricated channels to higher ups to bad mouth you. Those types of people also find this to be fun - so they'll make sure there is going to be a tag on your forhead saying "douch bag" and bring you intentionally into weird situations with outsiders.
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