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RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

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Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#61
> Developers love building developer tools, often for free. So while there is massive demand, the supply vastly outstrips it.

This is key, and plays out over and over again in different forms. There are no points for difficulty, only supply and demand. PG puts this well [1]:

> That's the essence of a startup: having brilliant people do work that's beneath them. Big companies try to hire the right person for the job. Startups win because they don't—because they take people so smart that they would in a big company be doing "research," and set them to work instead on problems of the most immediate and mundane sort. Think Einstein designing refrigerators.

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#62
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the developer tools and systems you use, then think "what would I expect to pay for these?" Chances are the answer is that you'd expect them to be free or you'd find something else. That's what makes it a bad market.

I think jetbrains, github, atlassian et al would like a word with you.

Those are outliers, and even then most people I know with a GitHub account are using it for free. Same with IntelliJ - most of us at Google were using the Community Edition.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MongoDB's stock price is quite remarkable, given how dismissive a lot of people (including myself) on HacherNews have been of their offering. It goes to show that HackerNews consensus != reality. I do wonder where/how Mongo makes their money - if anybody has some insight, please share.

HackerNews is wildly detached from reality

Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mongodb has a 15b market cap, and mongo is widely derided.

They finally got their engineering act together (via the Sleepycat acquisition), long after they'd made it big.

Didn’t Oracle buy Sleepycat?

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#65
post #27

The unspoken alternative in articles like this is that they don't know why they failed, or their view of the market is just not clear enough to form a judgement. The industry is still in an awkward position where software deals in 'intellectual property', but the concept was never really developed with an understanding of whatever it is that software is. Something like PostgreSQL for example isn't exactly a product,…

Indeed there's always some secret sauce in finding product-market fit - but it's always specific to every product! One can only discover it by toiling hard with customers and be opened for unbias evaluation of inputs coming from all the sides. There's no guarantee that you'll discover it for your product before you run out of the inner drive to toil.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#66

> People wanted RethinkDB to be fast on workloads they actually tried, rather than “real world” workloads we suggested Uh no, It was slow on real world workloads, you just don't want to admit it.

I think that's his point. That's why he put "real world" in scare quotes.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#67
What’s with all of this seemingly whitewashing of history? Slava himself described why it failed. I mean as founder you have to be laser focused. Yet he was too busy trying to win over his “hot new employee” than focusing on the database.

There is an archive of his deleted tweets here where he describes it: https://gist.github.com/travisbrown/059310042193a2e143408b05...

And then there was an article that seems to be gone from the web (https://web.archive.org/web/20201130215752/https://threader....). It stands to reason this huge distraction played a role in the mismanagement of the database and why it ultimately didn’t succeed.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#68
post #9

"Read The Economist religiously. It will make you better faster." Huh?

What he means is that if you're completely ignorant about business, then reading a financial magazine will help you level up over time.

(Related: I've worked with new managers in SV who couldn't define what the words "leadership", "responsibility", "planning" or "accountability" meant, since all they knew was PHP programming.)

It's a good post mortem read.

I gave the same advice about "use case" as in the post mortem to a YC database company a few years ago. The "founders" also thought they were building a better (technical) mousetrap, but I told them nobody was going to pay anything if it did the same as an existing database - it had to do something unique and be cloud-based, like Snowflake, or RDS. They were crestfallen, but still didn't listen to me. I even got hate mail from them before they went under - talk about being clueless to the bitter end.

What RethinkDB did wrong was what was in their post mortem, but also not having experienced DBAs to review the use cases. As a DBA, my default is to say no to new databases, and being the audience, that would have been valuable for them to know.

An example of how DBAs and devs think differently is the Jepsen database reports - devs fetishize those, but DBAs are like, "We already know corner cases aren't going to work most of the time. What's your point exactly?"

Source: experienced DBA.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MongoDB's stock price is quite remarkable, given how dismissive a lot of people (including myself) on HacherNews have been of their offering. It goes to show that HackerNews consensus != reality. I do wonder where/how Mongo makes their money - if anybody has some insight, please share.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mongodb-inc-announc... - Revenue: Total revenue was $150.8 million in the third quarter fiscal 2021, an increase of 38% year-over-year. Subscription revenue was $144.1 million, an increase of 39% year-over-year, and services revenue was $6.7 million, an increase of 19% year-over-year. - Gross Profit: Gross profit was $104.7 million in the third quarter fiscal 2021, representin…

I'm always kind of amazed at the low services number on MongoDB earnings reports. It's 4-5%. This seems unusually low for enterprise database companies.

Re: RethinkDB: why we failed (2017)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it occurred to you that paying for things is a recent, temporary mode of interaction between humans while free and good will is the default? You have it confused - prices is an arguably necessary, temporary condition, until we get back to simply from everyone according to their ability, to each according to their needs.

I’d say that’s about as utopian of an idea as the unrestricted free market. In theory, sure, sounds great, but the pragmatic timescale it would take to get there would be beyond lifetimes. We’ll all be dead by the time these systems reach their true form. In your particular example for instance, human nature would wreck havoc in the form of abuse. I will point to (incoming snark) the very rare cases of slavery, under…

What's utopian about it?

What do children pay their parents, or parents pay their kids? That's the relationship people start out with and one that is most natural.

People seem to think that there is money, and before money, there was barter. That's fake news made up by economists (the barter before money bit).

People have been around for hundreds of thousands of years. Money has been around for a few thousand in select places and never used for most transactions by most people until extremely recently.

I'd argue it's still not used for the most important transactions and the existence of food stamps, universal health care in every sane developed country, free education and subsidies for parents with children is simply some of the numerous examples of most people preferring free for things they deeply value and care about.

Money is great for veblen goods and exchange among adversaries, everything else wants to be free. Free as in decided based on factors other than money, not free as in oxygen.

I'm not articulating this too well, please have a look here for a take I'm trying to express, done by a proper journalist.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/barter-...

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