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On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

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Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#261

Post by kbhn »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #248
slfnflctd wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a sentient AI with superhuman intelligence were observing us, they would be utterly puzzled at the amount of waste and destruction we perpetuate through the meat & dairy industries for no reason other than ephemeral perceived pleasure through our taste buds. If "someone's preference" - a completely subjective thing - is objectively less efficient and more harmful than doing something else, we can and do intervene…

Humans like eating meat because it is nutritious. It is not just a random preference and it is not something that anyone can just switch off, therefore it is not a matter of morality, as you are trying to portray it ("If you love meat and are willing to burn the planet down so you can keep eating it..."). It is possible our taste for (cooked) meat gave us an evolutionary advantage that made us who we are today: Howev…

> It is not just a random preference and it is not something that anyone can just switch off, therefore it is not a matter of morality, as you are trying to portray it

Every declaration you made in this sentence is incorrect.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#262

Post by kbhn »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #249
cies wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone's preference It's not a personal choice (preference) when it cause another being to suffer (caged, artificially inseminated (raped), babies taken away, fed horrible food, etc.) Thinking that it IS a personal choice, to me, puts one on borderline insanity: total disdain for other forms of sentient life. I hope the taste of that meat/dairy/eggs makes it all worth it for you. I cannot imagine taste bud pleasur…

>> I hope the taste of that meat/dairy/eggs makes it all worth it for you. I cannot imagine taste bud pleasure trumps ethics. You are putting a morality spin on something that has a biological basis. Humans like the taste of meat because it is a very good source of necessary nutrients. It is possible that our preference for meat and dairy (in particular, fermented dairy, like cheese) has provided us with an evolution…

You've replied with this article to multiple comments as if it carries any weight. Why do you feel like we're bound to the same dietary behaviors as our ancestors?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#263

Post by thaumasiotes »

reedjosh wrote: post #227
maxerickson wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commodity literally means cheap and of consistent quality. All of those things should be commodities, even if we choose to pay for them as a society rather than organizing the flow of goods using markets. Put simply, if you are willing to buy it without sampling it, you think it's a commodity.

I think you mean if you are willing to buy it regularly without sampling. We bought a few brands prior to our current buying pattern. I am not willing to buy milk without sampling. Currently we have two that we like. Basically, one has extra fat added, but the other comes in a reusable (literally return for reuse) glass bottle. If only I could get both.

> Basically, one has extra fat added, but the other comes in a reusable (literally return for reuse) glass bottle. If only I could get both.

Presumably you can get half-and-half in glass bottles, if you really want?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#264

Post by chordalkeyboard »

duxup wrote: post #133
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have cooperation without price-fixing.

Ultimately the problem is the price...

I think we’ve generally agreed that slavery is morally wrong and people should be paid for their work.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#265

Post by chordalkeyboard »

katbyte wrote: post #210
reedjosh wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing a resurgence of competition on quality too. I personally purchase organic grass fed glass bottled milk from local farms. Sounds snobby and onerous, but it's available at any Whole Foods. Quality food is truly worth it. Milk should not be a commodity. I know it's a bit more expensive, but I promise eating quality reduces the need for quantity. Our bodies are starving on this poorly made junk commodity food.

> Milk should not be a commodity neither should food, water, or shelter but here we are

Commodification is just a word that describes things of value being available at a standard price and quality.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#266

Post by PretzelPirate »

omginternets wrote: post #247
cies wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the conditions under which bull calfs for veal production is abhorrent To you! To me (also vegan) any animal in a cage is abhorrent. I want to be free and wild and I also want all others to be free and wild. Maybe some humans deserve to be caged for their behavior. Animals can never be guilty... > Next time you see that on the menu, take a moment to think about where it's coming from and how it's made. Exactly. Was…

Here's what I don't understand about this reasoning: many of the animals you're defending -- such as cows -- have been domesticated to the point of relying on humans for survival. For these, the choice is not "live in captivity, or live free", it's "live in captivity, or not at all". My question is therefore: were you unaware of this, or do you prefer the disappearance of (e.g.) cows over their captivity?

Most vegans would support the extinction of domesticated cows over their forced inpregnation and commodification.

These domesticated cows aren’t necessary for keeping the ecosystem in balance, and any cow we don’t breed into existence won’t suffer. There aren’t a group of unborn cows being sad that they never got a chance to exist.

There isn’t a strong reason to support cow breeding for the sake of cows existing.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#267

Post by oh_sigh »

anonAndOn wrote: post #217
BitwiseFool wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall hearing that there is a glut of milk in the US because there are just too many dairy cows. Is this still true?

Don't forget rBGH.[0] Canada and the EU banned it, but thanks to big Pharma, you can get still get hormone adulterated milk in the US of A. [0] https://www.organicvalley.coop/blog/rBGH-decoded-what-is-bov...

And I think even if you put on your milk container that it contains no rBGH, you legally have to put an extra note on there saying that rBGH is not proven to be dangerous.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#268

Post by oh_sigh »

Tossrock wrote: post #252
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure the fact that it's impossible to turn a profit in any of the "family" small scale dairy farms is a little more important than how hard the work is. Why exactly is that important? I could not turn a profit running a family plastic casting business in the U.S. either. It's just not something that can be done competitively on a small scale. Seems like milk production isn't either. That's sad for people…

Because large agribusiness conglomerates extract their profits largely by creating negative externalities through pollution and underpriced illegal labor? That was kinda the whole point of the article. Government exists to create policy regulating externalities, and they're failing to do their job here.

Sure, that's true, but even in the world where large agribusiness was perfectly regulated, economies of scale would still favor them over small-time milk producers.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#269

Post by oh_sigh »

xipho wrote: post #145
nineplay wrote: post #95

I think he's glossing over the obvious. A friend of mine was just reminiscing about growing up in her family's dairy farm. Every Saturday morning, every Sunday morning, every Christmas you get up to take care of the cows. Feel sick? You've got to get up and take care of the cows. Want to go on vacation? Can't, there's no one you can leave the cows with. It's a hard life - maybe a satisfying life in some ways but ther…

You seem to equate hard work ethic with sustainability, this is false. You obviously have never experienced the joys of winters with nothing todo except read, learn, cook and play, because you worked insanely hard on the farm for 6-8 months of the growing season (being your own boss, but who cares about that).

I can't speak categorically, but I grew up around farmers (dairy, pigs, & crops) I've never known a farmer who took the winter off. Winters would be spent repairing and upgrading equipment, and prepping for the upcoming season, not just lazing around.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#270

Post by handoflixue »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #260
Tossrock wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because large agribusiness conglomerates extract their profits largely by creating negative externalities through pollution and underpriced illegal labor? That was kinda the whole point of the article. Government exists to create policy regulating externalities, and they're failing to do their job here.

Pollution is a negative externality, I agree. Paying illegal immigrants to work in the U.S. is illegal, but it is not a negative externality. I'm also not convinced that small farms are better about either of these things than big ones are.

The article included reports shows that the larger farms are responsible for more pollution, because the sort of techniques you use to handle the waste for 1,000+ cows are radically different than the ones you'd use to handle a small business herd. Search for the phrase "manure lagoon"
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