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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

741–750 of 863 posts

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do we have more right wing extremists in Germany in France? Because if you apply the same poitical standards, the FN and AfD are more like center GOP.

This is a comment steeped in ignorance. But let's put aside that fact. Let's take the following logical conclusion 1. We should ban extremist views 2. The centrist GOP is extremist (since the Front National and the AfD are agreed extreme) so obviously: 3. We should ban the GOP from Twitter and other places discussed in this thread. ^^ is anyone else seeing this?? Is anyone but me very very scared that people like thi…

I never advoated banning the AfD or the FN, did I? If they are overstepping, like AfD politicians like to do in terms of Volksverhetzung, they get investigated. And if they vilated the law, the go on trial and ma get convicted. Sounds reasonable to me.

And yes, according to European standards, people like Ted Cruz are found in the AfD and FN. If you disagree, please share examples where AfD / FN positions differ from the GOP, meanin where these two parties are farther right then the GOP.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just a few people explaining how they de-radicalized. Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. Due to the number of people constantly being suspended/banned I think there is a greater chance that these people will become radicalized, than someone will realize they ha…

>Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. This is a bad argument; it is a fact, for example, that child pornography by being censored creates a taboo around it. It's also true that some people will seek it out because of its taboo nature - something it would not be (or only…

> it presupposes that free speech is so good and basic that it overrides all other rights.

Yes. Speech is not action :)

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#743

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

This is just a few people explaining how they de-radicalized. Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. Due to the number of people constantly being suspended/banned I think there is a greater chance that these people will become radicalized, than someone will realize they ha…

Daryl Davis does not scale.

Pithy, but I say it after being a big fan of using him as an example.

Persuasion has moved from the cottage industry of human interaction to industrialized consent manufacturing.

Fox and cable television were the steam engine, social media is the industrial revolution. Human scale approaches such as Daryl’s are akin to using buckets to drain a sea.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ban dangerous actions , not speech. When you start censoring speech, you give a very small group of people the ability to silence whoever the please.

Surely it's also true that when you start preventing actions, you give a very small group of people the ability to prevent the actions of whoever they please. It's hard to see the point being made here.

The difference is that when you prevent speech, you can't even discuss changes to the laws. The censorship of speech gives a much different and somewhat hidden form of power.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent a lot of time on the internet over the years and the thing i've noticed about 'extremists' of all kinds, not just idealogical ones, i'm talking like any kind of 'extremist'. That handful of people you find on a forum more devoted to whatever the topic or niche is than everybody else. The people that are there, every day all day immersing themselves in it. They're fairly far and few between and wherever you…

Underrepresented POV I think. ‘Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

I don't believe in Hanlon's Razor at all any more, personally. John Oliver does a good job debunking it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyO_MC9g3k

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. This is a bad argument; it is a fact, for example, that child pornography by being censored creates a taboo around it. It's also true that some people will seek it out because of its taboo nature - something it would not be (or only…

> Why should it be society's burden to deradicalize people? Because your neighbor's problem eventually becomes your problem. Cases in point: Saudi Arabia helps 9/11 terrorists; US meddling in South American politics promoting fascists, death squads, and the War on Drugs fueling powerful gangs and cartels; Western-caused climate change refugees fleeing Africa, the Middle East, and South America; Dec 8, 1947. > Does th…

>Because your neighbor's problem eventually becomes your problem.

This is an argument for doing something, not necessarily for putting a burden on individuals to counter extremist and murderous ideology - especially those who are most likely to be targeted by it. It may be a moral imperative, but moral imperatives really are sensetive to a variety of individual circumstances to exercise, because they only work by way of moral obligations and moral responsibilities - both of which are only parts of rational decision making.

Someone who has had a strong past of experiencing racism may balk at the idea of starting a dialogue with an extremist whose entire ideology is founded on the view that he is not even worthy of consideration as a civilized person.

I firmly believe that most people lack the capacity of mentorship, or if they have it, then they are not terribly experienced with it. The fact that professional mentors take so much time and effort to nurture someone who they know is already receptive and still fail should be a testament to a significantly worse ability in the common person to do that, especially when, as I mentioned, communication is a two way street. What makes you think the mentors will be any less susceptible to radicalization than the people they are mentoring?

The biggest problem is that most people do not have the requisite knowledge to be such mentors. They may know racism is wrong, but maybe they can't explain it sufficiently well. They may appeal to humanity, but it may not get far to do so with someone whose ideology for the past two decades has been the fundamental inhumanity of the person they're talking to. Needless to say, all this completely leaves out the fact that I really don't think most extremists are keeping an open mind in the first place.

>When you start editorializing an individual's speech rather than debating them, it's a slippery-slope down the road to censorship and fascism.

Slippery slopes need to be justified, not merely supposed. The mechanism needs to be explained and the risk made clear. For example, the mechanism that one form of speech (like hate speech, defined stringently) can be banned. It is not at all obvious that this leads to other ideas being banned; the legislature, for instance, need not and generally does not work on the basis of precedent. Superior courts can override precedent. Similarly, the fact that a hate speech law can be abused is not a good argument; plenty of laws can be abused, including, say, anti-terrorism laws. This does not mean that anti-terrorism laws should be done away with.

>Having venues that can debate and debunk bad ideas with better better ones is preferable to preaching to the choir.

This assumes the debating and debunking works and wins out over rhetoric. We're not dealing with pure ideas, we're dealing with two forms of expression of those ideas: firstly, hate speech which is a generally non-argumentative and derogatory expression of the idea designed to be hurtful; secondly, speeches, texts, videos, music, etc. which combines rhetoric and argumentation. Debate does nothing for the first category. It may do something for the latter category, but it's unclear if it does so at the scale or effectiveness to satisfy the moral obligation you pointed out.

>Someone can't influence or the change minds of people they refuse to talk or listen to.

The point of the laws discussed is not to change peoples' minds, it's to hobble the spread of their ideas.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#747
post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. This is a bad argument; it is a fact, for example, that child pornography by being censored creates a taboo around it. It's also true that some people will seek it out because of its taboo nature - something it would not be (or only…

> it presupposes that free speech is so good and basic that it overrides all other rights. Yes. Speech is not action :)

The fact that speech can be distinguished from action does not in itself provide a reason to prioritize speech over action. Further, speech and action share a number of commonalities that there are good arguments made (by Susan Brison and Frederick Schauer, for instance) that the categorical difference between them rests on a philosophical error.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#748
post #230
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Likewise for the environment - the right tends to deny climate change is even happening, so how do they support environmentalism? That answers itself - if someone doesn't believe in a threat, it doesn't make sense to invest in stopping it. > Can you give me one right-leaning healthcare or environmental "plan" that anybody in congress is pushing that will cover every American 100% for healthcare, drugs, mental healt…

> That answers itself - if someone doesn't believe in a threat, it doesn't make sense to invest in stopping it. But you're the one claiming they're not anti-environmentalism! This is literally what anti-environmentalism is [1]. You might claim that they're not anti- environment though: I doubt anyone would actually choose to destroy the environment if it had no other effect. (Other than the small minority that's in i…

Fair enough, but if you want to argue that then I can go back to the point I joined the thread and provide examples of even small amounts of environmentalism causing hurt to specific populations.

All the resistance to the actual policies is people observing that they will have markedly lower quality of life and that the overall strategy of environmentalism is explicitly to dismantle big chunks of the west's way of life. That is why there is substantial organised resistance to the environmental policies the left wants, and why the resistance is more sustained. It is very damaging policy. That is why it is so unpopular. The people it is damaging aren't going to bear any consequences otherwise.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are making a distinction without a difference. > As the original article itself pointed out, "hate speech" is an amorphous term that can refer to any socially unacceptable speech. Actual "hate speech rules" and "downvotes" are merely different mechanisms for enforcing social stigma and censure. No, you're blurring things to the point of meaninglessness. For instance, "first post" competitions would clearly be u…

> For instance, "first post" competitions would clearly be unacceptable speech here, yet I doubt anyone in good faith would actually call such posts hate speech. No, but if you think "hate speech" is a clear and definite term with no room for abuse you are deluding yourself. > Also, downvotes are an opaque mechanism. The person I responded to clearly knew why he was being downvoted. He presented an unsophisticated an…

> No, but if you think "hate speech" is a clear and definite term with no room for abuse you are deluding yourself.

That's actually not an uncommon situation for a term, such is human language. Most terms have fairly established meanings with a bit of fuzziness around the edges. That doesn't mean they're meaningless, arbitrary, or not useful.

> The person I responded to clearly knew why he was being downvoted. He presented an unsophisticated and (on this forum) unpopular view of hate speech rules.

It was certainly unpopular with some, but I wouldn't say it was unsophisticated.

> Insisting that people who are critical of hate speech rules are white supremacists is not a constructive take.

I made it clear that was an example, not a general characterization of any group. You'll also notice I didn't specify any particular race, so you're basically putting words in my mouth.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#750
post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it presupposes that free speech is so good and basic that it overrides all other rights. Yes. Speech is not action :)

The fact that speech can be distinguished from action does not in itself provide a reason to prioritize speech over action. Further, speech and action share a number of commonalities that there are good arguments made (by Susan Brison and Frederick Schauer, for instance) that the categorical difference between them rests on a philosophical error.

When one censors 'speech' they are really censoring thought. We just call it speech because that's the highest-bandwidth and lowest-latency mechanism us humans have to exchange our ideas. Eumemics and eugenics are two sides of the same coin, and I am very suspicious of people practicing either of them.
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