Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

701–710 of 863 posts

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#701

Post by DubiousPusher »

clairity wrote: post #390
DubiousPusher wrote: post #13

If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work then why in exactly these kinds of articles do people bemoan it as dangerous? I may agree that most censorship is wrong but it does work. It worked for centuries to help maintain systems of inequality. It worked for centuries to maintain familial control and enforce sexual monoculture in many countries. Information control works so well, it prev…

> "If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work..." > "I may agree that most censorship is wrong but it does work." that's at least falling for an availability bias. we have a extraordinarily tiny, highly-fragmented, and highly-idealized view into history. the more reasonable null hypothesis would be to assume folks had a range of opinions on any given topic, but their behaviors were modul…

That's exactly my point. I don't think censorship changes people's minds immediately. But over time, the absence of an idea creates a status quo bias. People born into a society where certain ideas are circulated less are less likely to encounter and adopt them.

People change their behavior based on what is acceptable not just based upon what they believe. If using a racial slur will get a person written up at work, they have an incentive to hold back when the instinct arises to use it. The absence of racial slurs at work will make new workers less likely to use them as people often copy the environment they inhabit for the sake of cohesion.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#702

Post by CyberRabbi »

Falling3 wrote: post #476
CyberRabbi wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s difficult for you to see political opinions with which you disagree being normalized, imagine how they feel.

It's completely disingenuous to categorize statements like "the US tax code is too complex" and "Jews are starting forest fires with space lasers" both as just 'political opinions'.

It’s only “disingenuous” if you aren’t a liberal. I’m a liberal so I believe people are free to hold any opinion they want as long as they are not promoting direct harm to anyone else and I will not be shamed out of a liberal position by exceptional strawmen.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#703

Post by hef19898 »

Alupis wrote: post #691
notahacker wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but the Allies did make Naziism illegal (the Soviets of course went further and made most other political speech illegal in their half of Germany) Not only did West Germany have denazification programmes, but things like denying the holocaust are still illegal in Germany today , as the article discusses. It's a bold claim to argue this was "futile" or "likely drove some to extremism" when the context was a reacti…

> Oh, but the Allies did make Naziism illegal You can be a Nazi in the US, UK and I'm sure pretty much anywhere in the world (except Germany) - and not go to jail, etc. So no, the Allies did not make Nazism illegal. Instead, they attempted to squash Nazism through propaganda (both domestic and foreign), and through spreading the truth about what Nazism had accomplished (Holocaust, among other atrocities). There's Hol…

With all the relevant criticism against German denazification, the policies and laws worked. Not just in Germany, but also in the other countries in Europe wih similar laws. That German laws failed to prevent genozid in other continents is to be expected, I guess.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#704

Post by stretchwithme »

lliamander wrote: post #658
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules A "slightly bad opinion" has to be more than "slightly bad" to break hate speech rules. If you feel a platform is overzealous in enforcing hate speech rules, don't use it. Or maybe ask yourself some questions before moving out. EDIT: the rain of downvotes is telling as usual.

> EDIT: the rain of downvotes is telling as usual. You suggest that people subject to social stigma and censure should "maybe ask [themselves] some questions". Do you think the reaction you are receiving should cause you to question your own position?

skillfully done.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#705

Post by hef19898 »

mancerayder wrote: post #636
cloverich wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. In what way does it make it worse? 2. Do you have some common examples of left wing extremism that are rampant and unchecked? I have many examples in my personal Facebook feed of right wing extremism, but few or perhaps no left wing extremism, despite many of my right wing friends voicing a similar complaint.

I have to swallow the fact that any reply means downvotes in this Silicon Valley community, but: 1. Because you're not actually removing right-wing extremism (which would be nice), you're pushing people into the corner. You can't legally or morally prevent people from having extremist views among themselves, having conversations, and in an Internet age you're going to play wack-a-mole if you try to chase after things…

How exactly do we have more right wing extremists in Germany in France? Because if you apply the same poitical standards, the FN and AfD are more like center GOP.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#706

Post by _y5hn »

eplanit wrote: post #550
spaced-out wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you balance trying to avoid creating these kinds of echo chambers, versus creating radicals by pushing them to other sites where there are no restrictions? By aggressively removing it to limit how many people are exposed, and ban those who continue to share it despite being warned.

Which is censorship. The thesis of the article asserts it is ineffective, and counter-productive to the parent comment's point.

No, it is anti-targeted propaganda.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#708

Post by penetraitor69 »

wnoise wrote: post #627
penetraitor69 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Individualism" was never really implemented as "western" value; it was only ever a catch-phrase to defend the status quo by insisting those at the top "earned the right" to be there. "Color blindness" likewise has mostly been used to argue that those on the bottom of society deserve to be there; (again) preserving the status quo. I.E. shutting down discussion by labeling racism a "solved problem". "Freedom of speech…

None of these were actually faithfully followed, and they were indeed used as excuses. But they used to be viewed as ideals to work toward. Now there are circles where they are _only_ seen as excuses, and they really have been demonized.

You could make that case, but I do think that they ceased to be "ideals to work toward" before people started recognizing them as such. I.E. it was only after "colorblindness" advocates started using the term to shut down discussions of issues facing minorities that people started calling out "colorblind" rhetoric as disingenuous.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#709

Post by mancerayder »

skipwalker wrote: post #640
cloverich wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. In what way does it make it worse? 2. Do you have some common examples of left wing extremism that are rampant and unchecked? I have many examples in my personal Facebook feed of right wing extremism, but few or perhaps no left wing extremism, despite many of my right wing friends voicing a similar complaint.

Are you kidding? CHAZ/CHOP in Seattle. Portland occupation. The various summer 2020 riots. Numerous conservative speakers over the years being blocked from speaking on college campuses...

The answer you'll almost certainly get in rebuttal is, oh, that's not extremism. And that brings us back to this cental question of who decides. I feel like a large percentage of people with strong opinions about censorship in this long posting/thread have a very limited historical memory / education. They want to mash on the Ban button without really understanding the implications for all of us who are not extremists.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#710

Post by _y5hn »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #694
ralmidani wrote: post #351

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

It's certainly true, if the only places where people criticise the mainstream consensus are dominated by neo-nazis, that reasonable people are less likely to criticise the mainstream consensus. The downside to that 'solution' is, sometimes reasonable people need to criticise the mainstream consensus. I recently thought of a great example: If the goal is to reduce extremism, one of the lowest-hanging fruit would be to…

So we should not expose abuse and misconduct, just because some fragile minds get upset when brown people speak up?
Post reply on HN