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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

521–530 of 863 posts

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would be the problem with changing the name of the movement to ALM all lives matter and making the focus against police militarisation rather than some divisive narrative of racism?

The vast majority of Americans understand that Black Lives Matter is an inclusive statement, not an exclusive one. Those who make hay out of the name and have ignored the movement itself for almost a decade now are a small, ineffective minority. The largest civil rights protest movement in American history doesn't need to spend its time focus-grouping and hand-wringing about people like that.

> The vast majority of Americans understand that Black Lives Matter is an inclusive statement, not an exclusive one.

Do they? I'm not sure what leads you to think that. I have no evidence other than anecdote, but from what I see, I'm not sure that your claim is true.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong." > This is such a terrible idea. All this accomplishes is causing extremists to find echo chambers where they will never actually know what they're doing is wrong. It's much better to keep extremists in mainstream pla…

> That core may get more extreme in its echo chamber, but its overall movement could end up being smaller and weaker. This is precisely the problem. That core will certainly get more extreme because there's no cross pollination between it and other more moderate groups. I would rather have more people with less extreme views than fewer people with more extreme views, because it's much more likely the more extreme peo…

> This is precisely the problem. That core will certainly get more extreme because there's no cross pollination between it and other more moderate groups.

But the question is how much? I'm highly skeptical that "cross pollination" moderates hard-core neo-Nazis to any significant degree, for instance. They might get a little more extreme in an echo chamber, but I don't think it will be that much more.

In fact, I think the "cross pollination" mainly goes the other way, by spreading extremist ideas to moderates that are vulnerable to them. Let them spread enough, and they could even become normalized.

> I would rather have more people with less extreme views than fewer people with more extreme views, because it's much more likely the more extreme people are a greater danger to society than the less extreme people.

I think the better way of thinking about this is "total quantity of extremism." You're always going to have a hard core, so the question is more about how big will that core be, and how many adjacent supporters will it have.

Let's say you keep neo-Nazis on twitter, and that leads to a hard-core that is 10% less Nazi, on average, but that's also ten times larger. You now have a far more dangerous situation on your hands.

> True, but it's more complicated than that. Extremism almost always results when you disenfranchise or ostracize a community. It's much better to integrate it so there's crossflow of information and empathy still. Dehumanizing groups of people also dehumanizes yourself.

Maybe in some cases, but not others. For instance, neo-Nazis extremists weren't created by disenfranchising some kind of "moderate" natural neo-Nazi community.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#523
I'm sympathetic to this argument in many ways. For one, extremist movements tend to thrive on oppression - being censored "proves" the system is rigged against them.

But the argument in this article is very flawed. For one, yes, Germany has a far right movement. The real question is, how influential would it be without all the legislation to suppress it?

Social norms matter, and legislation can reinforce those norms. It's important to pick the right battles, however. Laws can be used to create pressures against becoming e.g. a white supremacist as long as the majority of the population opposes that ideology. OTOH, try using laws to make people go vegan, and it's not going to go very well in the current situation.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#524
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "winning" even mean for the left? The people who choose leftism will win against everyone else for the reasons you say, but like all political victories, winning is (comparatively) the easy part. Keeping your values intact and governing a successful society is the hard part. The Left seems to have given up on liberalism in persuit of victory. They are in the process of giving up on progressivism. What remai…

What's good about liberalism? They seem more progressive than ever; an open socialist nearly won their primary last year.

Liberalism and progressiveism are not the same thing.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you opinion is. The poem you quoted is aimed at true, real, historically existing Nazis. So it is less applicable at people with somewhat similar views complaining about being called out. Calling them out and confronting them is exactly what the poem advocates for. The same goes for your post about tolerance towards intolerance. And then you complain about anti-white racism, which is not a thing. C…

The right are not the ones cancelling people. It's better to have everyone fighting like hell than one side censored into oblivion.

They are the ones storming the Capitol, though.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep running into "but who are the intolerant people these days?" The J K Rowling mess as an example: clearly someone historically very tolerant. Writes some articles about some areas where she disagrees with the current thinking. Is immediately cancelled. I don't see much tolerance there? Who, exactly, is being intolerant here? Or is it just everyone? Maybe I should not tolerate this any more? We've totally lost t…

We haven’t totally lost the ability to have a civil discussion, we’ve just for some reason raised the stakes to mean that we should be able to have a civil discussion in a forum of hundreds of people, behind screens. Civil discussion exists plenty in smaller forums, like group chats and discords and slacks where people care about being civil.

[On the internet, people aren't afraid of getting punched in the mouth] - Mike Tyson

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason we just had the largest civil rights protests in American history this summer has as much or more to do with the everyday experience with the police as it does the extraordinary events such as deaths. Deaths were the spark, not the fuel. The grinding oppression of every day life in terms of policing has been shown in study after study. It is disproportionately felt by black people, mostly men, but it has b…

> Daniel Shaver's death is not argument against BLM's goals, it's an argument in favor of them. Exactly. I've seen far more outrage about the death of a white man from those who say black lives matter than from those saying all lives matter.

Mhm. December 10, 2017. Two days after the video was released.

  #BLM Activists Call Attention To Graphic Video Of Daniel Shaver's Death At The Hands Of Arizona Police
  Black Lives Matter is against police brutality of all forms and against all people.
https://blavity.com/blm-activists-call-attention-to-graphic-...

Shaver isn't the only non-Black victim of police violence that BLM has been involved in supporting either. While their focus has always been Black people, they have never operated in an exclusive way at all.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#528

Ctrl+F "Popper" - zero results found. If you don't provide a cogent counterargument to Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance, I can't take an essay like this seriously. Simply throwing up your hands and saying, "hate exists, let it rain free on the marketplace of ideas" is ... well, not worth a lot. Also, I love the absence of evidence = evidence of absence argument: * Germans have stringent anti-hate speech laws * ...…

The paradox of tolerance is simply factually incorrect when it comes to speech. The existence of intolerant speech doesn't exclude anyone. People who are offended don't have to listen. The paradox of tolerance only exists when people or groups are taking action to exclude others. And we don't have blanket tolerance for actions, only for speech. Someone is free to talk the talk of intolerance, but the moment talk turns into action the law swoops in and takes them away.

In short, the paradox of tolerance doesn't hold true at all when we're talking about blanket freedom of speech. If we were talking about anarchy, blanket freedom not just of speech but of actions, then yes the paradox of tolerance comes into play. Some

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#529
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still using subjective terms like "extremism" in an objective way that the people on the receiving end of that label may not agree with or appreciate.

They might not agree with it at first, but eventually, large numbers will realize how non-sensical their movement's ideas are. CNN has profiled former QAnon true believers who are recovering.

CNN is just Fox News for a different flavor of extremist

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#530

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

This is just a few people explaining how they de-radicalized. Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. Due to the number of people constantly being suspended/banned I think there is a greater chance that these people will become radicalized, than someone will realize they have a bad opinion because they got suspended/banned.

I'm reminded of Daryl Davis, and the way he de-radicalized KKK members. He did it by talking to them, engaging them in speech. It feels like hate speech censoring could actually lead to more radicalization as people feel persecuted and become even more radical than if you had let them talk. It's a hard problem because you can get radicalization if you allow people to create their own echo chambers of hate. How do you balance trying to avoid creating these kinds of echo chambers, versus creating radicals by pushing them to other sites where there are no restrictions?

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