Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

blog.abevoelker.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 341 posts

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#131

Post by thaumasiotes »

alteriority wrote: post #122
thaumasiotes wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you be cooperating to do?

can't speak for gruez, but a couple off the top of my head: -set standards that all members abide by, potentially bypassing "tragedy of the commons'-style coordination problems -share information which, in a more cutthroat environment, would be considered "trade secrets". Not sure how these would apply to the dairy industry specifically; it just seems overly broad to say that price fixing is the only plausible form o…

Look into the effects of your ideas, and you'll see them wind up in rising prices. Your first example, excluding industry members who don't meet a particular standard, is one of the most typical forms of "colluding to raise prices" you could possibly think of, often expressed in the form of professional certification.

The only things an economic organization can do are raise prices and lower costs. For a labor union, costs are labor; from the consumer end the workers' "lower costs" mean less work is being done, which shows up as higher prices for consumers.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#132

Post by lettergram »

gruez wrote: post #107
lettergram wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. Stocks, gold, Bitcoin, a house you live in (not rent) don’t produce anything (unless your stock has a dividend). You want something that produces. Say I buy $300k worth of gold, 10% inflation hits and there’s no change in demand and its now worth $330k. Say I buy a $300k farm. 10% inflation hits and there’s no change in demand. It’s now worth $330k... but the value of production of said farm is also up 10%…

>Stocks, gold, Bitcoin, a house you live in (not rent) don’t produce anything (unless your stock has a dividend). Houses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent Stocks: You're literally owning a share of a corporation that produces stuff. Producing a dividend (or buybacks) isn't guaranteed, but that isn't that much different than owning a farm, which can also fail to produce a profit (if costs exceed expenses).

Perhaps you missed "a house you live in (not rent)"

I agree with the idea renting a home would be similar to a farm. The whole thing is you have to generate an income from the asset.

Stocks are, as you mentioned, kind of similar - but IMO not precisely the same. Often companies have expenses that also inflate, so it's more similar to gold or holding something static. When you own the means of production it's a tad different. Personally, I'd consider stocks somewhere in-between. Better than gold, less good than production your own.

However, owning a farm or means of production does come with more risk.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#133

Post by duxup »

gruez wrote: post #113
thaumasiotes wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of a union should not be to collu[d]e to raise prices. The point of a union should be to pool market power and resources These are just different words for the same thing.

You can have cooperation without price-fixing.

Ultimately the problem is the price...

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#134

Post by tengbretson »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #93
nradov wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That $500K doesn't disappear. In a few decades the farm can be sold and you can get your money back (depending on changes in land prices).

But farms across the nation are failing and conglomerating. It just seems like he's investing in horses after the Model T has been released.

These conglomerating farms are exactly the reason for the lower quality food the poster is talking about. If the trend you identify continues then the relative scarcity of high quality food will rise.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#135

Post by jpollock »

In New Zealand, the average dairy herd size on the South Island is 611 (414 nationally).

In Wisconsin, it's 150.

Looks like there's a lot of room for consolidation in Wisconsin.

https://www.jsonline.com/in-depth/news/special-reports/dairy...

http://www.siddc.org.nz/about-siddc/south-island-dairying/

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#136

Post by deadmetheny »

joerandom wrote: post #40
ilikerashers wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you classify helping with chores around the house as child exploitation too? As on a farm, kids have chores. They're not working night and day.

Do you have ANY idea how chores on a farm look like? Hint: it's nothing like vacuming or taking dishes out from a dishwasher. It's lots of hard work. Dealing with excrements and dangerous animals (even a cow or pig is dangerous in confined spaces).

Do YOU? Because I did farm chores growing up and the stuff you're tasked with doing is never particularly dangerous. Dirt and grime washed off just fine and it was good exercise and time outdoors.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#137

Post by gruez »

lettergram wrote: post #132
gruez wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Stocks, gold, Bitcoin, a house you live in (not rent) don’t produce anything (unless your stock has a dividend). Houses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent Stocks: You're literally owning a share of a corporation that produces stuff. Producing a dividend (or buybacks) isn't guaranteed, but that isn't that much different than owning a farm, which can also fail to produce a profit (if costs exceed expenses).

Perhaps you missed "a house you live in (not rent)" I agree with the idea renting a home would be similar to a farm. The whole thing is you have to generate an income from the asset. Stocks are, as you mentioned, kind of similar - but IMO not precisely the same. Often companies have expenses that also inflate, so it's more similar to gold or holding something static. When you own the means of production it's a tad di…

>Perhaps you missed "a house you live in (not rent)"

It's not giving you cash every month, but it's saving you from having to pay rent, which is effectively the same thing. This is what imputed rent is.

>Stocks are, as you mentioned, kind of similar - but IMO not precisely the same. Often companies have expenses that also inflate, so it's more similar to gold or holding something static.

and farms don't? You need to buy fuel, fertilizer/feed, equipment, all of which inflate. There's also the opportunity cost of your labor, which also inflates.

There also exists a much simpler way to see the equivalence between the two: what's the difference between owning a farm, and owning a share in a corporation that operates a farm?

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#138

Post by wtmt »

speeder wrote: post #18
ainiriand wrote: post #13

As a vegan, I am concerned about the cruel treatment of farm animals. Losing family farms only aggravates the problem in this price race against the bigger actors in dairy production. While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Mind you, activist veganism is one of the biggest reasons family farms are being destroyed all over the world. Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget. Meanwhile people that CAN afford to buy high quality food from family farms, don't, because o…

> Basically, low quality food is flooding the market, and getting purchased by the poorer population, that don't feel they have a choice in what they eat, because they eat whatever is necessary to fit in their budget.

This has everything to do with capitalism and large corporations selling 99c (meat) burgers with fries and cola with hardly anything healthy in them at the cost of the environment, workers, and other aspects. It’s not a recent phenomenon either. So your starting claim about activist veganism causing problems and continuing to this paragraph immediately after doesn’t make sense.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#139

Post by drewg123 »

My uncle owned a large dairy farm before he died. He loved farming, loved his cows ("the girls"), and loved farming enough to farm until he died, even though it was hard physical labor that had already taken a large toll on his body.

The running joke in the family was that he made more from real-estate speculation than he ever did from farming. His farm was next to a major interstate and in the suburban expansion path for his metro area. He'd buy land and farm it when the price was low, and because he farmed it, the real estate taxes were negligible. He'd then sell it when the prices where high and use it to subsidize the farm.

He died a millionaire, but lived in a ratty, falling down farmhouse and drove a 20+ year old car.

Re: On the death of my family's dairy farm (2019)

#140

Post by fock »

slfnflctd wrote: post #111
dkersten wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading something about a square foot or three of tightly packed grow space (using vegetables that complement each other or whatever; I also remember reading about was it tiered gardening?) is enough to feed a person. My mother grows a bunch of vegetables in about ~3 square feet of space and while its not everything she eats (vegetable or otherwise), it does cover a good bit and she always has more of what…

> a square foot or three of tightly packed grow space [...] is enough to feed a person That seems insanely optimistic to me. I've done a lot of reading about people's attempts to feed themselves with home-grown agriculture, and it's way more difficult than many assume. I would multiply that square footage requirement about 1000x before even trying it-- and that's if all possible relevant research is implemented and e…

yes, I think I've come to the conclusion that around 1000m² per person should be enough to have a significant impact on food supply per person in a non-optimal, manual-labor based workflow. 1/3m² won't cut it as the mother of the preposter probably also ate a healthy dose of carbohydrates, proteins and fat which generally are not abundant in any typical "decorative" vegetables. And if you want to selfsustain your family you really need a lot (just look at the weight of military ready-made meals and think that you have to produce that (as a baseline) (x 365 x number of people supplied). Also in any urban setting, the supply of clean water will kill you faster than any lack of food.
Post reply on HN