Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows • Hacker News Board

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#211

Post by pricci » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #187

quesera wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having difficulty parsing your rant. I can't tell if we agree or not. :) Ctrl+C is a method of generating a standard ASCII character which has meant "ETX" (end of text, sometimes "interrupt") for many decades. Other control chars are useful too. In addition to C, I use S, Q, D, Z, V, O, N, I, G, H, M, L, J, Y, A, E, K, W ... probably others ... fairly regularly. So in the early 1980s, along comes MacOS which need…

> "we don't control the hardware and can't add a key, so let's break it all" But they do control it enough to add the Windows logo key and the context menu key. I use the Windows logo "Super" key a lot (mostly for workspaces) and I miss the context menu key which is there on my office keyboard but lacks on my laptop (which even has a keypad). Being able to open a context menu without using a mouse is a very useful co…

You can open it with Shift + F10.

But I agree it was a good thing to have.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#212

Post by PascLeRasc » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

jamienicol wrote: post #174

kergonath wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The differences in keyboard layout are so unnecessary from technical point. The only reason for them to exist is to lock people into the corresponding ecosystem. Surely you’re aware that these keyboard shortcuts have been in use on Macs for about a decade before Linux existed, right?

That's the same argument Emacs developers use to justify alt (sorry, "meta") + w as copy. But it's a terrible argument. (In the Mac case at least using cmd+c is superior, and even works in Emacs!)

Is that the default meta key? If so then thanks. I've had a really hard time getting that info from emacs users so I haven't been able to try it.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#213

Post by PascLeRasc » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

bscphil wrote: post #173

rbreaves wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a feature built into macOS - you can easily change the location of your modifier keys on a mac and even if you couldn't Karabiner Elements works well and there are terminal based methods for rebinding as well.

From what I remember, I wasn't able to rebind the function (fn) key without using Karabiner. Has that changed recently?

Yep, it shows up as remappable for me on Catalina.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#214

Post by kps » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #114

I’m hijacking the thread, but does anyone know if a Linux utility that replicates OS X’s ability to enter special characters with option? For instance on a QWERTY keyboard, you can type option-backtick followed by `e` and it will combine it into `è`. There are several other combinations I forget to enter other Unicode chars that don’t have a key and that feature works systemwide. It’s the one thing I miss on Linux fr…

You need to set your keyboard layout. Assuming you have some desktop environment, look in its keyboard settings for “English (Macintosh)”. You may also have to configure an AltGraph key (== Option); the default is likely right Alt, since that's what Windows does.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#215

Post by ByteWelder » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

fhunt wrote: post #151

ByteWelder wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using control for the most common operations is much more straining for the hand. It is especially noticeable by heavy keyboard users such as software developers. Using your thumb to hit CMD (or Alt on a Win keyboard), is much less straining.

i haven't used the original ctrl keys for a decade, nowadays everyone puts control on caps, even on a mac haha. then your left pinky is closer to ctrl + faster than your left thumb to command and if you want you beloved spotlight just install ms powertoys which has powerrun, it's the same, bind to alt-space

Interesting use case. I have ESC bound to Caps Lock. (for Vim/Emacs keybinds)

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#216

Post by qwerty456127 » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

BTW how do you use keyboard to select terminal text in the first place? Also, is there a way to use clipboard in text mode consoles (without X)?

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#217

Post by thomastjeffery » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

quesera wrote: post #71

thomastjeffery wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually in Linux (specifically in Xorg) it's select to copy and middle click to paste; which uses a separate buffer from the C-c/C-v clipboard. Personally I find this method much more usable than the traditional windows-style clipboard. Either way, you want to generally avoid C-c for copy in terminals because it's already bound to the all important "send sigterm signal to foreground process". This is on a long list o…

> generally avoid C-c for copy in terminals Absolutely. But it's not cruft. It's the original meaning of the character, and the standard method of generation. Ctrl+C is just like any other keypress which maps to a standard ASCII representation. The error is in reusing ASCII chars for GUI actions. This was an obviously-bad idea in 1985, and it has never become a better idea.

That's the traditional perspective.

My perspective is that control characters were a bad idea from the beginning. Then again, so are ubiquitous predefined keyboard shortcuts like C-c.

Having user interaction predefined makes it more difficult to change keyboard layouts and shapes.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#218

Post by quesera » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #217

quesera wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> generally avoid C-c for copy in terminals Absolutely. But it's not cruft. It's the original meaning of the character, and the standard method of generation. Ctrl+C is just like any other keypress which maps to a standard ASCII representation. The error is in reusing ASCII chars for GUI actions. This was an obviously-bad idea in 1985, and it has never become a better idea.

That's the traditional perspective. My perspective is that control characters were a bad idea from the beginning. Then again, so are ubiquitous predefined keyboard shortcuts like C-c. Having user interaction predefined makes it more difficult to change keyboard layouts and shapes.

Control chars are in-band signalling. This is always "bad", but sometimes it's all you have. Certainly back in the early days of wired serial connections, that was the case.

So if you have in-band signalling, you need a method to generate those signals. I don't think there was any other viable way to solve this problem, and honestly it has worked almost flawlessly.

Of course Microsoft is a big exception, but that could hardly have been predicted 20 years earlier.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#219

Post by michaelmrose » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #172

chmln wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the most common use cases for the `ctrl` key is COPYING shit and followed by PASTING shit and it DOES NOT WORK in a fucking TERMINAL... Because `ctrl-c` sends an interrupt Most terminals today have a copy-on-select feature, which means you don't need to ctrl-c at all. Just select and ctrl-v.

I want to chip in here with a rant of my own because I absolutely fucking hate this feature. The idea that something I think of as a passive action—selecting text—can destructively alter my clipboard makes my skin crawl, and it's baffling that anyone thinks it's a replacement. The thing is it's the default on iTerm2 on the Mac, so every time I set it up I spend a week thinking "why is my clipboard always completely f…

I don't think Mac OS actually natively supports select to copy so ITerm2 as an app implements it by filling the same clipboard buffer you would otherwise use.

X11 by contrast has by default 2 buffers so you never clobber your buffer filled by control+c however some clipboard management software optionally syncs the 2 buffers bringing back the behavior you dislike.

Re: Kinto: Mac-style shortcut keys for Linux and Windows

#220

Post by michaelmrose » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #166

1996 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either way, you want to generally avoid C-c for copy in terminals because it's already bound to the all important "send sigterm signal to foreground process". This is on a long list of ancient cruft that exists in terminal emulators and shells. stty intr ^X Then ctrl-c will no longer bother you, and your muscle memory will quickly adapt as X is very close to C

I mapped intr to control g some 30 years ago. It's the interrupt key in emacs. I gave up after some months because I still had to use control c on any terminal that I didn't control. By the way, I don't even know if I could paste with control c or control shift c back then. Maybe there was only middle click. I could try again now and see what happens.

I didn't know you could do this before this thread this is a great idea.