Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 213 posts

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#21

Post by marcinzm »

doggodaddo78 wrote: post #16
marcinzm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin I mean, have you seen the waiting times for Indian US green cards? You may literally die of old age before getting through the queue right now. The system is structured to make them disposable temporary workers and not future American citizens. So why is it surprising that they act like it?

It's a fucked-up system that perpetuates fetishization of a "golden Willy Wonka ticket" in order to mint underpaid workers on a leash. I've seen such tech workers make 3-10% of equivalent native salaries, and live in appalling group housing conditions to save money. (TCS, anyone?) There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.

>There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.

I mean, sure there is, people just don't want to fix it for various reasons. For example, reform the H1B and Green Card processes. Make the H1B an actual path to a green card and citizenship which most people seem to want nowadays. Cap H1Bs per nation (so there's a clear concise path to citizenship if you're in the US) rather than Green Cards or increase the Green Card caps.

Blaming the people who are trying to make a better life for themselves by working within the system that those more wealthy than them have set up just seems very silly to me. Blame those who setup the system instead.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#22

Post by mc32 »

doggodaddo78 wrote: post #4

Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I ejected from that heap. Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. Sunnyvale Costco is like an airport in Burma (okay, Myanma…

A contributor to the attitude is the caste itself.

These kids (huge majority from upper castes) are treated with too much deference at home by the parents, family and society. Since they are served well at home by servants and society when they go to foreign lands their expectations don’t change and they take the baggage with them. Mind you, they’re modulating the behavior a bit abroad because at home it’s even more pronounced.

And while SV is taken by DEI there are more than a few companies that lean very heavily to one foreign ethnicity to the exclusion of others. It’s an amusing contrast of signaling vs reality.

On the other hand, I’ve worked with nice ‘regular guys’ (from India) who had sloughed off any trappings of caste don’t have pretensions and they are a pleasure to work with and indeed contribute to our society.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#23

Post by DisjointedHunt »

throwaway713 wrote: post #3

I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?

I've had first hand experience living in India for over a decade. tl;dr: It is a way of life. The caste you are born into dictates if you can rent a certain house or fall in love with a section of the population.

-Newspaper ads and matrimonial websites openly discriminate against castes and skin color. I can guarantee you that every single Indian you have worked with in the valley has discussed their "Match Type" at some point and this is almost always a discussion around an "Arranged wedding" where women and men are matched based on caste, skin color , wealth etc -The kid in the story is not an outlier but the norm. It isn't uncommon to hear stories about kids lynched by "Superior" castes because they dared soil the belongings of a higher caste person or were dating someone they weren't supposed to. (This isn't just India, but the general region around India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the extended communities that have immigrated to western nations) -Casual humor and memes around caste and skin tone is EXTREMELY common place and can be found on prime time TV, popular Facebook pages and groups liked by tens of thousands of immigrant communities. -The more modern youth generally don't appear to subscribe to these ideals, but there's no choice, very few break the mold.

It really is sad to see it first hand, i don't know what the solution is since it literally is a part of life in that part of the world

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#24

Post by doggodaddo78 »

lhorie wrote: post #12
doggodaddo78 wrote: post #4

Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I ejected from that heap. Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. Sunnyvale Costco is like an airport in Burma (okay, Myanma…

I'm sorry but consider that this right here is discrimination too. Go to Costco in Markham, Ontario and you're going to be seeing a lot of chinese people in the way you describe too. But then consider: when was the last time you stepped into your local hmart (a Korean supermarket chain)? People congregate with similar people. This is something torontonians have gotten over ages ago. Mingle if you want to, but also ac…

NIMBY is for nuclear reactors, not groups of people who Balkanize themselves into their own gated communities, whether native or immigrants.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#25

Post by twaybtclong »

objclxt wrote: post #11
doggodaddo78 wrote: post #4

Who's worked with Brahmin IITians, raise a paw? :paw emoji here: I hope the Valley absorbs all of the world's horrible tech sociological antipatterns because I ejected from that heap. Transient gold miners descended on the place where I grew up, treated it disposably, and failed to make any effort to integrate because they're just visiting to make their coin. Sunnyvale Costco is like an airport in Burma (okay, Myanma…

> because of the predominant "fuck it" attitude: don't learn the customs, don't speak the language, don't put down roots, and don't interact with locals [...] when you bring in a junior software engineer's extended family, you're getting a swath of average people too There isn't a huge amount of difference between what you're saying and what the previous president had to say on immigrants coming to the US - "when Mex…

Wonder how he got that idea:

> “Chiva,” his uncle said. Goat, the Mexican slang term for black tar heroin. “This is how we make our money.” Cora Indian campesinos grew the poppies in the mountains above Xalisco. They harvested the opium goo from the flowers and sold it to cookers whom Enrique’s uncles knew. A newly cooked kilo of vinegary, sticky chiva would head north in a boom box or a backpack within a couple days, virtually uncut, and often hit L.A. streets only a week after the goo was drawn from the poppy. As Enrique’s uncle spoke, he rolled little pieces of the gunk into balls the size of BBs.

"Dreamland" https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidem...

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#26

Post by ricardobayes »

akimball wrote: post #14
ricardobayes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is at least gold where you grew up. Lots of other areas have gone through the same transformation without the 'gold'. For example where I live is a touristic part of Spain. It wasn't touristic at all 40 years ago, so much so that people washed their clothes in the river (not joking). Come mass tourism they abandoned everything and erected megahotels. But tourists priced locals out, nobody can afford housi…

It creates “opportunity”. Feed enough oats to the horse, and some comes out for the sparrow. Tourism and gentrification both embody “horse and sparrow” economics, i.e. the opportunity to eat effluent, which may or may not be better than simply not eating.

These folks have been living merrily without even using cash until the '70s. Barter economy + fishing/agriculture kept them afloat. If they couldn't catch anything that day, they ate the odd banana.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#27

Post by doggodaddo78 »

marcinzm wrote: post #21
doggodaddo78 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fucked-up system that perpetuates fetishization of a "golden Willy Wonka ticket" in order to mint underpaid workers on a leash. I've seen such tech workers make 3-10% of equivalent native salaries, and live in appalling group housing conditions to save money. (TCS, anyone?) There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is.

>There isn't a magic or easy answer. It is what it is. I mean, sure there is, people just don't want to fix it for various reasons. For example, reform the H1B and Green Card processes. Make the H1B an actual path to a green card and citizenship which most people seem to want nowadays. Cap H1Bs per nation (so there's a clear concise path to citizenship if you're in the US) rather than Green Cards or increase the Gree…

I never blamed any one group, you inferred that yourself. I blame human nature and the situation.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#28

Post by majjgepolja »

jtdev wrote: post #10
throwaway713 wrote: post #3

I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?

In India, you’re born into a socioeconomic position and the likelihood of ever moving upward in the socioeconomic structure is virtually zero. Those at the top of the socioeconomic structure treat those below them like complete shit.

Most of them don't even ask your caste these days. I do not know where you're from. And there's even caste based affirmative action.

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#29

Post by dominotw »

throwaway713 wrote: post #3

I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?

It is still very prevalent.

1. I know people in my friend circle here in USA who refuse to invite people from lower caste into their home. One even had separate set of tea cups for lower caste friends to serve tea in. In india lower caste people are not allowed to enter the homes of higher caste people.

2. indians in usa form their friends group based on their nationality/language/region/caste in that order. While I don't think intent is malicious, its still a problematic mindset.

3. 99% of indians marry within their own caste. South Asia has on the highest levels of endogamy in the world.

4. I am skeptical that there is caste baste discrimination in workplaces though. But there might still be subconscious bias.

on 3: looks like its around 95%

https://www.popcenter.umd.edu/news/news_1461686585907

Re: How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley

#30

Post by presentation »

throwaway3021 wrote: post #18
throwaway713 wrote: post #3

I don’t know anything about Indian culture; could someone who is from there shed some light on how prevalent the prejudiced mindset is? E.g., do 80% of people think the caste system is stupid and outdated whereas the other 20% still hold some prejudice toward Dalits? What about Indians that have moved to the U.S.? And is this issue improving quickly or slowly?

Very prevalent - but less likely to see in workplace than in social life (relationships, housing). This article also alludes to social aspects (study groups, etc) in IITs and not so much on academics. Not based on any formal survey but my perception is 80-20 tilts towards higher caste population believing in superiority of their caste. I would also add many believe reservations for backward caste is unfair. Hindu nat…

One of my friends had a story, where he was conducting a job interview with an American-born Indian teammate, and the interviewee was an Indian; when the interviewee went to the bathroom, she offhand guessed at the interviewee's caste, and then immediately felt mortified that she said that to a non-Indian and apologized. Just hearing that story secondhand was pretty wild for me to process!
Post reply on HN