Live data from Hacker News

Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

newscientist.com

51–60 of 79 posts

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#51
post #46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”The lack of radio sources means that there are no galaxies or clusters in that volume, and the fact that the CMB is cold there suggests the region lacks dark matter, too.”

Interesting inference, to make it we have to hypothesize that dark matter has an effect on the CMB in the first place, is that at least somewhat backed up by any observations?

The small fluctuations in the CMB that WMAP detected (the 2007 article being about the "WMAP Cold Spot") are sensitive to the distribution of all matter -- including dark matter -- in the early universe.

Roughly, hot spots have more matter, get hotter as that matter collapses into stars, hot gasses, and eventually black holes; cold spots have less matter, and because of the expansion they get colder, sparser, much bigger, and eventually become practically empty.

Early pockets of dark matter overdensity, similarly roughly, helps turn on the heat very early, and keeps the heat turned on longer than otherwise. Early pockets of dark matter underdensity makes it much harder for stars to light up in the first place.

Generally one simulates the introduction of non-uniformities in this distribution during Cosmic Inflation, and then the overdense areas collapse while the underdense areas experience the cosmological constant. At the time the universe has expanded enough that photons can free-stream (this marks the beginning of the CMB, see [1]) the density-differences in one part of the universe to another are very small, but over billions of years the collapsing dense regions become ever denser (and form stars and galaxies) while sparser regions simply become colder. (Both become emptier, relatively; collapsing a diffuse cloud into a dense cloud leaves behind a lot of space emptier than when the diffuse cloud was populating it).

Dark matter plays a crucial role here, because it collapses more slowly than visible matter by forming haloes and other structures, essentially suspending visible matter (gas) above the cores of galaxy clusters (where in later times you find really gargantuan black holes). It is also important that its underdensities and overdensities after Cosmic Inflation were roughly the same as that of what became the particles of the standard model, and it is this feature that appears to be crucial to structure formation : https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_cosmo_struct.html

However, once the CMB has formed, those photons no longer interact appreciably with the dark matter of the universe -- the gravitational interaction is weak and gets weaker with the expansion of the universe.

So it is the early distribution of dark matter (before atoms, before protons) that is important in creating CMB cold and hot spots.

It would be odd to have a hot spot become anything but a matter structure (galaxy cluster) because of gravitational collapse. Likewise, it would be odd to have a VERY cold spot become anything but filled with a very sparse gas (e.g. hydrogen + photons + neutrinos). The WMAP Cold Spot is not THAT cold and so could have structures like galaxy clusters in it, but fewer of them than than in the filamentary structures. Indeed, we may live in someone else's cold spot. Galaxy surveys are trying to gather up evidence one way or another for the densities of galaxies and their ages along various lines of sight from here, which will help us determine how well WMAP cold and hot spots line up with galaxies. ALL galaxies are much more recent than the CMB.

Several ideas about how the WMAP Cold Spot could have been a WMAP Average Spot at the time the CMB was formed, but that (mostly new physics) events in the more modern universe present us with a relative cold spot. Some of these have the virtue that these more modern events are more amenable to study with our current level of technology than the distribution of gravitational waves after cosmic inflation and the detailed study of the cosmic neutrino background (which is similar to the cosmic microwave background, and so should have similar small temperature fluctuations; but measuring ultracold neutrinos is not something we can do today, nor can we yet look at the frequencies and amplitudes of primordial gravitational waves, however there may be indirect probes of both available before our descendants are able to observe them directly).

- --

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_(cosmology)

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#52
post #13

Imagine being a civilization on the edge of a galaxy on the edge of the void. One direction, nothing whatsoever. The other direction, billions upon billions of galaxies. Would be neat!

Imagine being a civilization alone in the void, and not even a generation ship could make contact with anyone else, even if they knew which direction to send it.

The Local Void that we are on one edge of is about 150 Mpc across (~490 million light years) and contains several "void galaxies" such as NGC 6503, about 4 Mpc (17 Mly) from us:

https://www.zmescience.com/space/the-local-void-mapped-04322...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGC_6503

Two tiny dwarf galaxies are in the process of leaving the Local Void due to the attraction of the galaxies surrounding it:

https://www.space.com/33748-dwarf-galaxies-escape-cosmic-voi...

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being a civilization alone in the void, and not even a generation ship could make contact with anyone else, even if they knew which direction to send it.

Star Trek Voyager had an episode where the crew got lost in a void 2,500 light years across . . . pretty interesting. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Void_(region)

The KBC Void our entire super-cluster is within is about 2 billion light years across...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KBC_Void

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#54
post #41

> The void, which is nearly a billion light years across, is empty of both normal matter and dark matter. The finding challenges theories of large-scale structure formation in the universe. How do they know or believe that it doesn't contain dark matter?

Dark matter has gravitational influence, which is detectable.

While it's possible that post-first-light dark matter can cause caustics-like effects on the background microwaves via gravitational lensing, the fluctuations in the CMB that are anything like the |WMAP Cold Spot| are not plausibly generated that way, mostly because dark matter is simply too diffuse from the present age of the universe back to just after the formation of the CMB (which is the earliest possible time any structure can be in the foreground of the CMB). Barring something really unexpected, the Cold Spot is probably a relic of Cosmic Inflation, producing an atypical underdensity of matter-including-dark-matter.

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil_(cosmology) is a pretty curious thing, but I think the safest bet is a combination of randomness and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia .

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#55
post #48
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, there's some ambiguity whether the slow zone was created by some power or naturally occurring (or a bit of both) although a bit of both is perhaps the natural answer.

You may be right; it's been a long time since I read A Fire upon the Deep or A Deepness in the Sky.

I remember some insinuations to that effect, but from an unreliable narrator given Vinge's penchant for strictly in-character exposition, and what would child races know of progenitor's motives?

As a universe arrangement scheme (both narratively and literally), it is a clean solution to providing a new race incubator and preventing "Why don't the First Ones rule everyone?" endgames.

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#56
post #13

Imagine being a civilization on the edge of a galaxy on the edge of the void. One direction, nothing whatsoever. The other direction, billions upon billions of galaxies. Would be neat!

Imagine being a civilization alone in the void, and not even a generation ship could make contact with anyone else, even if they knew which direction to send it.

Unfortunately that's actually what the future holds for the universe (as far as we can tell from current observations).

The universe will expand so much that civilizations into the VERY distant future will not be able to see other stars and galaxies, and will have no way to know that there's more out there.

It's quite sad actually.

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#58
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how large the swarm is. Using our sun as the example a 1AU swarm would be very warm, but at 100 AU it would be extremely cold and much harder to detect. Really though, a Dyson’s swarm isn’t that efficient long term. It’s likely better to dismantle large stars and use fusion reactors with heat sinks at close to 2.73 Kelvin as possible.

Fossil fuels vs solar, it’s a sustainability question. Plus, dismantling a sun isn’t much help to the planets orbiting it, and then you need to find a way to efficiently get that energy to another system to be used.

The amount of fuel is fixed either way so it’s an efficiency question. Normal stars only burn a small percentage of their fuel. Maximum energy is captured by turning hydrogen into lead. After that, dumping lead into a deep gravity well is the final option.

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#59

Posted it because it reminds me of an hypothesis I once saw, that we might be able to detect alien civilizations based on blank spots in the sky where they've managed to divert all the energy from their environment.

Why would we presume they would not think to generate a cloaked for this if they had the ability to divert all energy from their environment? Seems an obvious first order of business to avoid looking like an anomaly if you are not actively trying to be found.

Re: Biggest void in space is 1B light years across (2007)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being a civilization alone in the void, and not even a generation ship could make contact with anyone else, even if they knew which direction to send it.

Sounds like you have a sci-fi novel to write!

To a lesser degree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_the_Universe_and_Everyth...
Post reply on HN