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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure if you're talking about the racist left or the racist right and that is mildly amusing. I don't know a lot (any?) racist right folks, but I know a shitload of racist left and they ALL publicly, verbally, in writing, rail against racism in one breath, and then shit on white people in the next. I acknowledge that this is anecdotal, but still...

There is no racism against white people in the, what, northern hemisphere. And never was. In that part of the world, racism comes from the white population and is aimed at others. Calling white racists out definitely isn't racism.

Thankyou for your service, accelerationist.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#192
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hellbanning has a history of working well for deradicalization of online communities that were a lot worse than twitter is; Jeff Atwood has a good post giving a brief look at the history of it: https://blog.codinghorror.com/suspension-ban-or-hellban/

That's not proof that any one actual person was deradicalized, which was the metric. Mr. Davis has 200 examples. I'm only asking for one. His method works. The deplatformers' citation of their own platforms only proves that they control their own platforms, not that any extremist view was changed.

That does show that people were deradicalized; read the Metafilter thread linked.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#193

It's fascinating when someone who is in a position of power and never suffers from hate speech develops his mind. People who suffer from hate speech know and understand cristal clear what they want to ban from our society. But others, which are not feeling it at the skin level, are just "hate," a natural part of the human being.

Please do not automatically jump to assumptions that people who you disagree with are in position of power or never encounter hate. This kind of sweeping generalization is what fuels racism, sexism and other kinds of "identitarianism", it stifles thought and prevents nuanced discussion.

Somehow I doubt that opinions about people who hold racist beliefs is what fuels those people, and not, well, racism.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#194

Eliminate? No. Reduce to the point of practical irrelevance? Yep. Deplatforming works.

The minute your platform becomes malevolent, and begins to "work" against your values, will you not regret granting it the power of moderating the social discourse?

What power? When in the history of the internet has a website's owner been unable to edit or remove the text that's published on their own site?

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure if you're talking about the racist left or the racist right and that is mildly amusing. I don't know a lot (any?) racist right folks, but I know a shitload of racist left and they ALL publicly, verbally, in writing, rail against racism in one breath, and then shit on white people in the next. I acknowledge that this is anecdotal, but still...

There is no racism against white people in the, what, northern hemisphere. And never was. In that part of the world, racism comes from the white population and is aimed at others. Calling white racists out definitely isn't racism.

Racism is literally defined as discrimination against any singular group based on race or ethnic group. Discrimination, irrespective of its origin on the left or right wing of the spectrum, should be treated identically. Implicit and explicit racial discrimination is omnipresent on both sides of the spectrum. This is evidenced by literally pulling up any of the popular social justice warrior channels on YouTube; you then immediately come in contact with it. It is farcical for anyone to push through a narrative that doesn't acknowledge this fact.

"White male" has become a demeaning putdown by many enthusiastic liberals, which is evidence enough.

Enough.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#196
post #186
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as someone who doesn't identify with the right or really care about any of these politics at all. Go google of a picture of the Minneapolis police department engulfed in flames shooting out 50 feet over the top. That was certainly a strongly predominantly left driven action.

The Minneapolis police department was set on fire by a "Boogaloo Boi". ... Ivan Harrison Hunter, a Texas rightwing extremist, bragged about helping to set the fire then was seen shooting 13 rounds at the building ... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo...

No one person was responsible for that fire or those riots. Even your source doesn't claim so, it only accuses him of "helping to set the fire".

> “I set fire to that precinct with the Black community,” and, “My mom would call the FBI if she knew.”

> “I’ve burned police stations with Black Panthers in Minneapolis,” he claimed in one message, and in another, “The BLM protesters in Minneapolis loved me.”

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no racism against white people in the, what, northern hemisphere. And never was. In that part of the world, racism comes from the white population and is aimed at others. Calling white racists out definitely isn't racism.

Racism is literally defined as discrimination against any singular group based on race or ethnic group. Discrimination, irrespective of its origin on the left or right wing of the spectrum, should be treated identically. Implicit and explicit racial discrimination is omnipresent on both sides of the spectrum. This is evidenced by literally pulling up any of the popular social justice warrior channels on YouTube; you…

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Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#198
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you’re making a common mistake, which is to assume there’s some “natural” algorithm that determines which tweets trend, and that human intervention is “unnatural” and unfair. That's partly true. I think it's "unfair", or rather disingenuous, only when the company claims there's no manual intervention. I wouldn't really have an issue with a company saying "we're looking to promote this or that speech". I thi…

Why did the rules change? Twitter, and any other private company, has never been under any legal obligation in it's business to provide a public space and it's not clear how you'd even define them as providing one (seeing as how the servers are in Twitter's datacenters, using Twitter's network, paid for by Twitter's revenue). Literally everything on Twitter is Twitter's property other then where governed by intellect…

> Why did the rules change?

I'm not a Twitter user so don't know exactly, but from what I see being discussed, it seems to me that there used to be more tolerance towards certain groups (apparently right wing, but probably others, too). But maybe that's just it, the rules themselves haven't changed, they're just more strictly enforced now (I actually don't know).

I'd say that what they're doing is obviously not illegal, or else we probably wouldn't be having this conversation because it would be much more clear-cut.

However, it's more of a "moral" issue, for lack of a better term. They advertised the platform as a medium for everybody to exchange. Now that a lot of people have gone there because of this advertisement, it has become more or less a public utility.

Now, again, I'm not saying what they're doing is illegal, they are not legally a utility, there are other avenues for people to communicate, etc.

> A country club being very popular doesn't suddenly make it a public space.

While I think you're right in the general case, I can't help but think there's a question of measure involved.

The country club will advertise exclusivity. Even if it's just for pose, and it's actually easy to gain membership, it will actively not pretend it's open to any and everybody. Also, it will require people be somewhat close geographically and will have a fairly limited reach. If the club said "we're open to everybody, we want to encourage public conversation" [0], then I'd consider it the same way I do Twitter.

Contrast this with Twitter, which explicitly advertises its openness.[0] And when you can subscribe to Twitter just by having a random browser and an internet connection, wherever you are in the world, and when pretty much anyone and their grandmother are using it to communicate, and when there's an assumption (be it misguided!) that Twitter is a public space, I think it's at least worth it to consider the question.

The answer may well be a firm "no", but it may also be "woops, this is actually something new, which we hadn't considered in our (quite old) laws. Maybe we should do something about it".

To sum it all up, I think Twitter, FB, etc are all a fairly new kind of "thing". They are private entities in that they are funded, operated, etc by a private company and with that private company's goal in mind. But their operations are clearly designed to attract the most people who then communicate on their platform.

Just as we regulated what can and can't be done by a telephone company or an electrical company (all private entities!) when those came about, I wouldn't be shocked for there to be some kind of specific regulation for those platforms, more than "just don't break any laws". It seems pretty obvious to me that trying to apply pre-existing models to them doesn't work all that well.

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[0] From about.twitter.com, emphasis mine:

> We serve the * public* conversation. That’s why it matters to us that people have a free and safe space to talk.

> We believe real change starts with conversation. Here, your voice matters. Come as you are and together we’ll do what’s right (not what’s easy) to serve the public conversation.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is literally defined as discrimination against any singular group based on race or ethnic group. Discrimination, irrespective of its origin on the left or right wing of the spectrum, should be treated identically. Implicit and explicit racial discrimination is omnipresent on both sides of the spectrum. This is evidenced by literally pulling up any of the popular social justice warrior channels on YouTube; you…

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My race and ethnicity has nothing to do with whether or not I am actively oppressing others. Whether these are correlated right now is irrelevant to how we should be behaving in a modern day, postmodern civil society.

Not sure the rest of your post makes any sense. I don't consider myself a racist or a sexist and I find it appalling that I am unable to comment on ongoing social issues without being called a "white male" or being told that my opinions are invalid because my lack of melanin seems to imply I am part of an elite group of oppressors. This is insulting and lacks any intellectual merit.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#200

If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work then why in exactly these kinds of articles do people bemoan it as dangerous? I may agree that most censorship is wrong but it does work. It worked for centuries to help maintain systems of inequality. It worked for centuries to maintain familial control and enforce sexual monoculture in many countries. Information control works so well, it prev…

>If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work then why in exactly these kinds of articles do people bemoan it as dangerous?

I've read a screenshot of some anonymous post that goes like:

"There's a general phenomenon I've noticed on the internet. Any forum with free speech and little to no moderation becomes right wing. Leftist ideas cannot exist without censorship and moderation."

Which I think misreads the situation slightly. When sites censor people, it pushes those censored to other sites. Concentrates them. When all sites censoring have a left bias, both the censored and uncensored areas become echo chambers. Censorship then is segregation, but instead of having water fountains for blacks and whites, you have websites for lefts and rights. The only reason sites like gab and parler exist is because twitter censors.

If you really believe in equal rights and desegregation, you would not censor people based on their diversity of opinions. If you really believe diversity is our strength, then you tolerate diverse opinions, even if you find some of the opinions repugnant.

As the article points out, it's not a question of "should" you censor. It's a question of "can" you censor. Clearly censorship fails in the worst possible way. It further radicalizes both sides. If you read both /r/politics and patriots.win, it's like both groups live in two entirely separate worlds. When you isolate populations their evolutions take separate paths.

And that's how it is ultimately dangerous. Censorship leaves you with two groups of radicals with no common ground. At some point, those two groups meet and that's when bad things happen.

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