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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#131

Post by skybrian »

nindalf wrote: post #115

I'm surprised to see people agreeing with this hypothesis ... while commenting on HN. I'm a huge fan of the site rules ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ) and the way they are applied by the moderation team. But that said, HN has the most heavy handed censorship of any site I frequent. Read all the rules from start to finish and ask yourself if you'd be ok following these rules in every Internet foru…

I like well-moderated sites like Hacker News, but this isn’t going to do anything to prevent extremists from communicating using other forums.

What are you going to do, shut down all group chats that doesn’t conform to your standards? It’s a much harder problem than creating a site that has good moderation.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#132

Post by koonsolo »

Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

I partly agree with you. You cannot convince a person with an extreme view (see flat earthers for example).

But I do believe you need to give reasonable responses to extreme views, to prevent others from becoming extreme. Calling someone "fascist" is in that sense never constructive.

Reasonable views are hard to argue with.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#133

Post by edrxty »

zapdrive wrote: post #56

What the left also needs is a realization that some of its beliefs are akin to extremism. And some of the left inspired policies have really really hurt and isolated a significant population. The left needs to soften it's stand on such issues.

Examples? I'm not really sure what you're aiming at here. I don't know of any documented cases where too much environmentalism or healthcare really hurt significant populations.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#134

Post by yongjik »

NaturalPhallacy wrote: post #107
Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

Nevermind that Daryl Davis has literally converted over 200 KKK members: https://www.rt.com/viral/371340-meet-black-man-kkk/ THAT is how you beat fascism. Not censorship. Lazy programmers trying censor via bits and bytes are never going to accomplish in a million years what Mr. Davis already has.

And Jack Churchill captured Nazi outposts with a longbow and a broadsword, but if allies armed every soldier with longbows and broadswords, something tells me that we'd be under Nazi occupation to this day.

Some great things are done by great people, but they don't necessarily scale well.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#135

Post by hef19898 »

glogla wrote: post #126
Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

Jean-Paul Sartre has a good quote on this - he framed it around anti-semitism but it covers othes as well, it might as well been written about QAnon or COVID deniers: Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly,…

Today they complain about being cancelled before going silent.

Very good quote.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#136

Post by TameAntelope »

NaturalPhallacy wrote: post #129
blockmarker wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he didn't go anywhere else. He could have joined Parler or Gab and continued drawing attention.

He did, and is. Just because you only pay attention to mainstream (D) media doesn't mean he's not on others.

Donald Trump did not join Parler or Gab.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#137

Post by oblio »

vbezhenar wrote: post #26
DubiousPusher wrote: post #13

If you cannot censor away opinions, if suppression of ideas doesn't work then why in exactly these kinds of articles do people bemoan it as dangerous? I may agree that most censorship is wrong but it does work. It worked for centuries to help maintain systems of inequality. It worked for centuries to maintain familial control and enforce sexual monoculture in many countries. Information control works so well, it prev…

Of course you can do it in theory. The question is, whether you can do it today and whether those attempts will turn out more dangerous than helpful. IT achievements allows for extremely easy exchange of the information throughout the world. You can easily circumvent many kinds of blocking. You have E2E conversations available to masses, so you can't effectively censor anything centrally. Whether that's good or bad i…

China?

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#139

Post by smsm42 »

k4c9x wrote: post #98
smsm42 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are usually two steps here: 1. Declare people who disagree with you fascists 2. Declare that it's impossible to dialogue with fascists Then it all becomes very easy.

No, it's: 1. Declare people that want a fascists form of government fascists 2. there is no 2. It's not word play, it's just facts.

Not sure what you mean by "fascists form of government"? Something like Italy in 1924-1945? I don't think there's any political power that advocates anything like that, and I am sure that at least 99.999% of daily use of terms "fascist" and similar ones are not directed at people who advocate appointing Il Duce and advocating government after Mussolini's example.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#140

Post by edrxty »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #111
vbezhenar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can do it in theory. The question is, whether you can do it today and whether those attempts will turn out more dangerous than helpful. IT achievements allows for extremely easy exchange of the information throughout the world. You can easily circumvent many kinds of blocking. You have E2E conversations available to masses, so you can't effectively censor anything centrally. Whether that's good or bad i…

> Of course you can do it in theory. The question is, whether you can do it today and whether those attempts will turn out more dangerous than helpful. Allow me to restate my position more precisely. I believe the supresion of information has worked in the past. And based on this I will need very compelling evidence to convince me that we live in a special time when it is impossible and no longer is effective. I'm ha…

And further, while you maybe can make an argument that it wasn't possible ten years ago, we're headed in a very centralized direction at this point. There are basically three places where broad populations can engage in discourse/recruit/radicalize and there may be fewer in another ten years.
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