You can't censor away extremism or any other problem • Hacker News Board

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#31

Post by ofrzeta » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

modmans2nd wrote: post #15

ofrzeta wrote: post #5

I never understood the point of Strafgesetzbuch section 86a. It does not make any sense to outlaw using Nazi symbols. It's like outlawing symptoms instead of caring for the illness. People will just take it underground and you will have a harder time tracking it down.

Being underground makes it hard for those wishing to spread it to spread it.

Maybe I shouldn't have mixed up two different aspects of this question. "Taking it underground" relates more to the expression of ideas as the discussed in the article. I don't see much of this in the use of the classical Nazi symbols.

On the other hand the law has been used to a ridiculuous extent in banning Nazi symbols from all sorts of cultural artifacts such as games or movies. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#32

Post by jude- » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:18 AM UTC

dmingod666 wrote: post #17

My reading from the outside is, the left needs to realize (I'm sure it applies to the right equally as well) that scolding people into guilt is not a viable approach to affect action or to change perceptions when you're dealing with adults. Neither does boxing people into this, that and that category do any good. Like if all you want to do is dehumanize those guys so you can happily insult / hurt them without hurting…

> I just think the solution should lie in : 1) dialog 2) laws

If they're not willing to be reasonable (like, you don't get to "dialog" about whether or not genocide is appropriate), then the best and most moral course of action could very well be to stop them from recruiting your friends.

In the context of tech, this is the essence of deplatforming. Twitter and Facebook cannot censor, since they are not governments. However, as private entities, they can decide not to let you use their service. That's their private property rights in action.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#33

Post by victorfonseca » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

It's fascinating when someone who is in a position of power and never suffers from hate speech develops his mind. People who suffer from hate speech know and understand cristal clear what they want to ban from our society. But others, which are not feeling it at the skin level, are just "hate," a natural part of the human being.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#34

Post by spoonjim » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #4

Like most of these rants against "censorship" they skip over people's rights to restrict speech as a form of speech itself: there is no moral (or legal) right to give people you disagree with a forum or audience to express their view. Calling to silence others (that is, encouraging them to take your view of not giving them an audience) is fine as long as people have a choice on how to respond. If there is some notion…

I feel like the choice on how to respond is less than it ever was, at least for myself.

It is 100% infeasible for me to contract any of the canon taught in my office: diversity is a top priority, women are oppressed, etc. I don’t even disagree with all of it, but I do know that I don’t have the option of doing anything but earnestly nodding my head at the diversity events.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#35

Post by dexterdog » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

That's exactly something a fascist will say about someone who he disagrees with but it's incapable of debating.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#36

Post by runarberg » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

clusterfish wrote: post #28

dmingod666 wrote: post #17

My reading from the outside is, the left needs to realize (I'm sure it applies to the right equally as well) that scolding people into guilt is not a viable approach to affect action or to change perceptions when you're dealing with adults. Neither does boxing people into this, that and that category do any good. Like if all you want to do is dehumanize those guys so you can happily insult / hurt them without hurting…

I think the extremes, both left and right, have realized that their greatest enemy is not the other extreme, but the masses in between. A group that has the numbers, with mild views that can dilute your message with reasonable doubt, challenge certain aspects of your extreme yet be broadly acceptable to a much wider audience including those tending towards your side – that's poision for an extremist. Therefore, their…

this might be false equivalence. People far on the left (except from some nas-bols; which I’ve never encountered in the wild) call them selfs anti-facists. It is clear who their greatest enemy is. In fact far left groups (like food not bombs, etc.) often engage in social programs called mutual aid where the goal is to spread propaganda through helping the masses.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#37

Post by redis_mlc » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #29

Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

The vast, vast majority of people who disagree with the left are not fascists. The urge to label them fascists and make them seem monstrous and unworthy of engagement is the impulse leads to civil war.

[dead]

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#38

Post by SiVal » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

You know, you can call those who disagree with you "fascists" while being the actual fascist who doesn't tolerate any dialog.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#39

Post by cheschire » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:23 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #29

Zardoz84 wrote: post #27

You can't dialog with fascist.

The vast, vast majority of people who disagree with the left are not fascists. The urge to label them fascists and make them seem monstrous and unworthy of engagement is the impulse leads to civil war.

I agree, but I would suggest you use the same logic about labelling anyone in any part of the political spectrum then. Using terms such as "the left" might seem less antagonistic than calling someone a "fascist" yet come across just as harshly when read / heard by someone who hears "the left" preached in the 2 minutes hate of their preferred news source.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#40

Post by koonsolo » Fri, Mar 12, 2021, 6:23 AM UTC

dmingod666 wrote: post #17

My reading from the outside is, the left needs to realize (I'm sure it applies to the right equally as well) that scolding people into guilt is not a viable approach to affect action or to change perceptions when you're dealing with adults. Neither does boxing people into this, that and that category do any good. Like if all you want to do is dehumanize those guys so you can happily insult / hurt them without hurting…

Reminds me of some test I read in a book (can't remember which one).

A teacher asks some student to stand up and raise his hands before him. The teacher stands in front of him and does the same, touching the students hands. Then the teacher starts pushing, and the student uses force to stay in place. Then the teacher uses more force, and so does the student.

Finally the teacher asks: "Whay are you pushing me?". "Because you were pushing me!"

This is exactly what is happening here. You cannot expect people to give in once you start pushing.