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Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

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Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#81
post #4

> Serving richly spiced stews was no longer a status symbol for Europe's wealthiest families — even the middle classes could afford to spice up their grub. "So the elite recoiled from the increasing popularity of spices," Ray says. "They moved on to an aesthetic theory of taste. Rather than infusing food with spice, they said things should taste like themselves. Meat should taste like meat, and anything you add only…

That is common in many other Asian countries, in Indonesia, some would bake fish as it is without anything, then you would add whatever you want when you take your cut to your plate, salt and other spices. It is a legitimate way of thinking about purity of foods and drinks I think. Coffee connoisseurs would not dilute the coffee with sugar nor cardamon, in the Levant for example.

I see ingredient purity as a cultural thing. Every culture has some version of it, especially as a form of conspicuous consumption. Wine, tea, and coffee immediately come to mind.

Chinese people can be absolute snobs about tea, but the same people like bubble tea which isn't made with high quality tea because you wouldn't taste the difference through the milk and sugar. Both are delicious in their own way.

Just speaking for my own diet (mostly Chinese), it's common to steam a fresh fish with a bit of salt, ginger, and scallion, and let the fish speak for itself. But the very next meal might be a curry or some other dish that relies heavily on the sauce. But then none of that carries over to making steak (buy high quality, cook neurotically), or making gumbo (get a few specific parts right but otherwise it's a high-tolerance dish), or making coffee.

There are definitely different paradigms for food, and I think if someone is unable or unwilling to appreciate that, it's their loss.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#82
post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

I'm Indian, and some of the most amusing conversations I've had about food have been with Italians. An Italian professor was insistent that I stand up and defend the need for Indian food to use a million spices. He was proud of the fact that delicious Italian food could be whipped up using just three ingredients. I was in full agreement with him, that Italian food was wonderful, and that it was commendable how far th…

Indian food is one of my favorites, saag being my top choice. I'm amazed at how many ingredients go into it.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Indian, and some of the most amusing conversations I've had about food have been with Italians. An Italian professor was insistent that I stand up and defend the need for Indian food to use a million spices. He was proud of the fact that delicious Italian food could be whipped up using just three ingredients. I was in full agreement with him, that Italian food was wonderful, and that it was commendable how far th…

Indian food is one of my favorites, saag being my top choice. I'm amazed at how many ingredients go into it.

FYI 'Saag' is just a generic name to refer to gravy dishes, that are eaten with chapatis. There are hundreds of varieties of saag.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indian food is one of my favorites, saag being my top choice. I'm amazed at how many ingredients go into it.

FYI 'Saag' is just a generic name to refer to gravy dishes, that are eaten with chapatis. There are hundreds of varieties of saag.

Thanks, I always thought saag was any sauce made primarily from leafy greens

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#85

if they had snobbish enough a few decades earlier, we would all be spared a hundred years of colonization, the Great Bengal Famine as well as the single most dangerous nuclear flashpoint that exists in the world right now.

Out of curiosity, what nuclear disaster are you referring to?

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#86
post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

I'm Indian, and some of the most amusing conversations I've had about food have been with Italians. An Italian professor was insistent that I stand up and defend the need for Indian food to use a million spices. He was proud of the fact that delicious Italian food could be whipped up using just three ingredients. I was in full agreement with him, that Italian food was wonderful, and that it was commendable how far th…

Indian food was the first cuisine I thought of when reading GP's comment. Indian food is, at least in my opinion, just as incredible and delicious as Italian food while utilising many spices and ingredients. You also get unique kinds of flavours that are impossible to achieve using European approaches to cooking, and to miss out on these because of culinary snobbery seems extremely sad.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#87
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not knowing where you are from, I'd take a guess at American as there is a sharp divide in garlic use between Italian and Italian-American cusine. Italian food typically has a lot less garlic in it and if you had it in any of the classic dishes like ragù alla bolognese or risotto alla milanese it would be surprising. Dishes like spaghetti alla puttanesca or aglio e olio are classic examples where it is used. Marinara…

In my region (Piemonte) we certainly do. One of the most distinctive dishes is bagna cauda , which is a dip sauce made mainly of anchovies and tons of garlic. It's usually recommended that you eat it before a day where you don't have to go out and interact with other people because you'll smell really badly of garlic :)

- "Isn't that too much garlic for a dip?"

- "Don't worry, the anchovies will cover the garlic smell".

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of reflect on in this comment, if you care to do the work. You are mistaking your personal preference for a certain style of food for the "western norm" which is obviously not correct because you also exclude the French tradition, which most would consider part of the heart of western cooking. You then suggest that people with different preferences are either less informed (not a chef) or less sincere…

> There is a lot of reflect on in this comment, if you care to do the work. You are mistaking your personal preference for a certain style of food for the "western norm" which is obviously not correct because you also exclude the French tradition, which most would consider part of the heart of western cooking. You then suggest that people with different preferences are either less informed (not a chef) or less sincer…

> unfounded snobbery

"Founded" snobbery is snobbery nevertheless.

> Which is why I hold the position that I do.

You... supervise other, more junior snobs?

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Indian food is amazing, specially if you're vegetarian. If someone would ask me to choose a menu for 5 days out of a week, for breakfast, lunch and dinner between a 5* Michelin chef or yellow lentil curry with 2 rotis and a coconut sembal, I would go with the curry. Any day. When you look at vegetarian cuisine outside of india, with very few exceptions in terms of restaurants and few exceptions in terms of dishes, it…

A couple of points :)

1. The yellow lentil dish is not usually called a curry (google the word 'curry', it is a much abused omnibus term for many Indian dishes). It is called a dal, as in "dal fry" or "dal tadka" (and not dhal(l) either :)

2. Coconut (or any) sambal is not an Indian dish, it is SE Asian, like Malaysian, although some Indian chutneys may resemble sambals in taste. India has a similar-sounding dish called sambar, but it is completely different. It is a kind of thick soupy dal which is sour (from tamarind or lemon or tomato) and often has some vegetable pieces in it. (Spices too, of course.) Usually served to go with rice, as in sambar rice, or with idli or dosa(i).

Anyway, nice to hear you like dal and rotis that much (e.g. 5 days a week). I do, too (with a sabji as well), and the same for rice, dal and sabji (a vegetable curry or dry veg dish). Those two combos are what the bulk of millions of Indian live on, day in and day out, even today. Except that some substitute some millet[1] or other for the rice or wheat (roti). And those can taste even better. But that is another story.

[1] India has many millets, of which jowar and bajra are probably best known, but others are making a resurgence these days. In some ways they are more nutritious, and also, many need less resources (like water) than rice and wheat do.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#90
post #77
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what does the person wear who's on top of the pyramid? Probably Birkenstocks and a hoodie...

Indeed, I meant to add that the super-elite doesn't really care. They don't need to signal anything.

Some of them do, actually. Like with a tiny crocodile image on a Crocodile-brand t-shirt, or I guess even subtler signs, at the higher end, like no brand name or logo at all - but some way of signalling the (expensive) brand, to those in the know. Maybe by the shade of color of the garment, or the cut, or some other sign. But they do :) I don't know all the ways, I don't move in those circles, but have read about it. Human nature (like to show off, among other things) runs deep.

Edit: of course, some others really don't feel the need, being very secure in their eliteness, so they don't, as you say. And some others go to the opposite extreme of dressing down-market (so to speak), again as a signal that they can afford to do so.

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